Jesus didn't die on the cross?


#1

OK, I’m still talking to Muslims! They believe Jesus survived crucifixtion and moved to India. This is the argument-

The point of crucifixion is to give the victim a slow and painful death by asphixation, (suffocation). Why did they not hang him, or simply execute him? But by beating him to near death and then to put him on the cross, seems somewhat an unnecessary ordeal.

This website

freeminds

Lays claim that if the arms were overhead, then asphixation would occur in minutes, however if a person is on a cross with outstretched arms then he is able to breathe for hours on end. So the site claims that jesus died on the cross from shock more than anything else…

The minimum time of death on the cross ranged between 24 and 28 hours, this was for people that were scourged, but in some cases it took several days to die on the cross. In such cases it became necessary to break the legs of the criminals so that death may be hastened and consumated. But Jesus was on the cross for a mere 3 hours according to the new testament. Jesus Christ who was in the prime of his youth (33 years) and enjoyed excellent health, could not be expected to have died within so short a time.

Another point relevant to this issue relates to the fixing of the date and time by Pilate for carrying out the Crucifixion. Even before he fixed the date and time we read of other things, which one should not be surprised to believe, might have played an important role regarding his final decision. First of all we know on the authority of the New Testament that Pilate’s wife was strongly averse to her husband passing judgement against Jesus because of the influence of a dream she had the night before Jesus’ trial. matthew 27 :19

She was so terrified by the effect of the dream, which led her to believe that Jesus was absolutely innocent, that she thought it imperative to disturb the court proceedings to convey the message of the dream to her husband

Pilate made a show of absolving himself of the responsibility of his condemnation of Jesus.

When Pilate saw that he was getting no where, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. ‘I am innocent of this man’s blood,’ he said. ‘it is your responsibility!’ (Matt 27:15–17)

Pilate had also made another attempt to save Jesus. He gave the enraged crowds an option either to save Jesus’ life or that of a notorious criminal called Barabbas.
Matthew 27:15-17

This provides us with a significant clue to the state of Pilate’s mind at that time. He was quite obviously against the idea of sentencing Jesus. It was in this psychological state that he fixed Friday afternoon to be the day and time of the execution. What actually happened, leaves one to believe, was a clear indication that he did it on purpose because the Sabbath was not very far from Friday afternoon and he, as the custodian of law knew better than anyone else that before the Sabbath began by sunset, Jesus’ body would have to be taken down; and that is exactly what happened.

Also his death was only the impression of an observer who was neither a physician nor had he any opportunity to medically examine him. An onlooker, watching with such anxiety and concern lest death should overtake his beloved master, merely observed the dropping of the tired head with chin resting against the chest of Jesus.

Pilate himself was surprised when the incident of death was reported to him.Mark 15:44

He must have had a long experience of crucifixion during his tenure as Governor of Judea and could not have expressed his surprise unless he was convinced that it is unusual for death to overtake a crucified person, within the short period of only a few hours.

Yet he had to accept the plea to release the body under mysterious circumstances. That is why he is forever accused of conspiracy.

“Then came the soldiers and break the legs of the first and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they break not his legs. But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water”.

(John 19: 3-234)


#2

The soldiers did not break the legs of Jesus for they took him for a dead man while actually he was in a state of swoon, or just to silence the angry Jews he was declared be a ‘dead’ man. But one of the soldiers incidentally “pierced his side and forthwith there came out blood and water”, which is a surer sign of life for blood and water do not come out of a dead man’s body.

If he was dead and his heart had stopped beating, such active bleeding as causing the blood to rush out or gush out would be impossible. At most coagulated blood and plasma could have passively seeped out. But that is not the picture which the New Testament presents, it says that blood and water rushed out. As far as the mention of water is concerned it should not be surprising for Jesus to have developed pleurisy during the extremely exacting and punishing hours of trial that he spent upon the cross. Also, the stress of the Crucifixion could have resulted in exudates from the pleura to collect likes bags of water, which is medically termed as wet pleurisy. This condition, which is otherwise dangerous and painful, seems to have turned into an advantage for Jesus because when his side was pierced the swollen pleura could easily have played the role of a cushion protecting the chest organs from being directly penetrated by the spear. Water mixed with blood rushed out because of an active heart.

Remember his side was pierced, so the wound wasn’t too deep, and it wasn’t at the heart as has been claimed.

There was no eyewitness to the time of the crucifixion, and statements made in the gospels were added at a later date and not in the original scripts!

in a state of unconsciousness the body functions perform slowly, so jesus could easily have survived the extra hour on the cross, which u have presumed.


Right, lets have some comments my firends!!!


#3

[quote=FightingFat]There was no eyewitness to the time of the crucifixion, and statements made in the gospels were added at a later date and not in the original scripts!
[/quote]

John the Apostle and author of the Gospel of John was at the foot of the cross with Mary, Mother of Jesus, and the Magdalene

These arguments are based on “swoon theory”, a theory that says Jesus did not die on the cross. This has been scientifically refuted and disproven. For more, follow this link:

godonthe.net/evidence/swoon.htm

Hope this helps, it lays down the facts.


#4

This is not our Catholic teaching at all. If you do not believe our Lord died on the cross, then you do not believe he was resurrected from the dead either. And what’s worse, you might as well enjoy this life for all it’s worth, because if you deny these things, then there is no hope of a future resurrection of your body. So when you die, it will be like the Rolling Sones song, “It’s all over now.”


#5

[quote=piety101]This is not our Catholic teaching at all. If you do not believe our Lord died on the cross, then you do not believe he was resurrected from the dead either. And what’s worse, you might as well enjoy this life for all it’s worth, because if you deny these things, then there is no hope of a future resurrection of your body. So when you die, it will be like the Rolling Sones song, “It’s all over now.”
[/quote]

Would help if you read the post piety! :wink:


#6

oops sorry. I drew out my saber to quickly. I’ll go back to standing guard.


#7

Their evidence is weak. The Muslims faith is a false religion based on lies so it is no surprise that they try to lead Christians astray. I have a thought, If a man was beaten and bled as much as I am sure Christ did, deprived of water for at least 20 hours, I am pretty sure that dying on the Cross after 3 hours is a believable event.


#8

All the arguments against the swoon theory presuppose that the entirety of the Gospel of John is both historically accurate and infallible. It seems foolish to me to refute to the swoon theory by appealing to Christian propoganda.

Oh, and Josephus himself records an incidence of a man surviving crucifixion.


#9

Frankly, I’ve found it a waste of time and effort to even discuss these things with Muslims. They just talk in circles and leave you dizzy.

Thing is, they don’t believe in our scriptures but will use them if it suits their arguments. How can you reason with a person who undercuts and insults the very text he is trying to prove you wrong with! :rolleyes:


#10

Dear Fighting Fat

I have been heavily pursued in the past to convert to Islam and to be honest the heart knows the truth when it hears it ‘I know my sheep and my sheep know Me’ The more I read of the Koran and the more I heard of these theories of Christ Jesus not dying on the Cross and being lifted up to heaven even that someone else died in His place…well the more the truth resounded in my heart as regards the Catholic Faith and the truth that Christ Jesus is God.

Forget about arguing with anyone of a different faith…YOU will not convince them, but the Holy Spirit will, so say a little prayer that the Holy Spirit will convict them of faith in the One True Truine God of the Catholic faith. Don’t bother using words to preach to them, they won’t listen if they are so minded as to keep arguing with you, just preach the Gospel by your life…Friend they are looking to convert you and they won’t back down to agree with you!

Keep your peace with them and that speaks more than all of this arguing.

I simply couldn’t get past this when I was being asked to join Islam…if Jesus didn’t die on the Cross then my sins are not ‘paid for’ in His Sacrifice and I am too weak to ‘pay for’ my own sins all by myself…without the Cross life is pointless, my possible eternal life is not won for me, there is no life, there is no Eternal life if Jesus did not die on the Cross. I simply could not believe that He didn’t die on the Cross, without the Cross of Christ this world and all it’s suffering does not make any sense. Jesus died on the Cross…period!

That’s what I think

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa


#11

Further to this I couldn’t square what they proposed with the rest of Sacred Scripture the prophecies of Christ Jesus’ coming, His Ministry and His Death and Resurrection.

Aside from all that, there is also Jesus’ propehcies about His own death…‘I am the Good Shepherd…I lay down my life for the flock, it is I who lay down my life, no-one can take it from Me’ ’ Yet a little while and you will not see me and then a little while and you will see me’ …‘She has done what she could; she has anointed my body beforehand for burying.’ (no-one alive is buried!:smiley: ) ‘My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here and watch’

There are many more verses in Sacred Scripture to account that Jesus did infact die ( as well as historical Roman documents that the man named Jesus, king of the Jews a Nazarene was put to death…he died… by crucifixion)…but like I said, your words will not convict them, the Holy Spirit will…so pray for them and keep your peace with them

I always think it was the Father’s Merciful Love to His Son for His obedience to the Father even until death that the Father took His Spirit back to Him swiftly once upon the Cross.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa


#12

On the one hand, I agree that Muslims are unlikely to be willing to be converted. However, for the sake of your own peace of mind that you have done all you could to explain to them why what they are saying cannot be true, I would suggest trying to find medical information about the realities of crucifixion. There are books by doctors–One is something like, A Doctor at the Foot of the Cross". But I suspect that a google search of “medical facts about crucifixion” (or similar phrase) should be able to give you an explanation of exactly how brutal a death it was. The Romans wre experts at execution; if they “thought” someone was dead, it was true.

One thing I would add, is that I do know that blood separates from the serum(water) it contains only after death. So, the water that came out when Jesus’ side was pierced, is a very strong evidence of death–one that would not have been known about at the time that the gospel account was written. (This should be available in the on line info).

Good luck!!


#13

If you watch the passion you’ll get an idea of how someone could die after only a few hours on the cross. Jesus would have lost a tremendous amount of blood and after such an ordeal as he went through I have no trouble believing that he died within 3 hours. I don’t think an ordinary man would have made it all the way to Golgotha.

We also know that the thieves didn’t die until they had their legs broken. Jesus would have suffered much more prior to the crucifixion, and who’s to say something supernatural wasn’t involved in the laying down of his own life.

It is almost as if he decided when his soul would depart from his broken body.

“It is accomplished”
“Father, into your hands I commend my spirit”


#14

Well according to Saint Cathrine Ann I believe her name is, Christ actually would have died when the crown of thorns was placed on His head if the angels of heaven din’t keep Him alive. It’s a vison she claims to have seen in her book “The Dolorus Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ.”


#15

Zooey makes an excellent point about the separation of the red blood and the serum evidenced when Our Savior’s side was pierced.

I remembered reading some information in the beautiful book ROSARY by Kevin Orlin Johnson, Ph.D., that might further answer your own questions, Fightin, on the Lord’s death and the three hours of his dying. Dr. Johnson points out that Roman crucifixions were done in two ways: by tying the condemned to the cross pieced by rope, or by affixing their hands and feet to the wood with nails. The first manner “allowed” the condemned more time of torturous agony because they could raise and lower their bodies more freely to gasp some air until that effort could no longer be sustained. For the condemned who had been nailed to the cross, though, there was much less ability to raise and lower themselves to breathe, especially since their feet were not nailed to any sort of little platform - as often erroneously depicted - but rather pressed against the upright beam (the stipes) and nailed flat against it.

Dr. Johnson writes:

Crucifixion by nails was an unspeakably agonizing death, but it was not nearly so slow as crucifixion by rope. Certainly, no man could endure that kind of crucifixion for more than about three or four hours, and all existing records testify that no one ever did. The crurifragium [breaking of the legs], in fact, was never necessary for a man crucified by nails. Writhing to shift the weight and gasp for air only made death come faster.


#16

Hello there,

This was a helpful read in dealing with the most common
Muslim arguments.

Facing the Muslim Challenge

I hope it helps.


#17

A Doctor at Calvary

I haven’t read this book myself, but I’ve heard and read good things about it. You might find it worth your time.


#18

[quote=springbreeze]Dear Fighting Fat

I have been heavily pursued in the past to convert to Islam and to be honest the heart knows the truth when it hears it ‘I know my sheep and my sheep know Me’ The more I read of the Koran and the more I heard of these theories of Christ Jesus not dying on the Cross and being lifted up to heaven even that someone else died in His place…well the more the truth resounded in my heart as regards the Catholic Faith and the truth that Christ Jesus is God.

Forget about arguing with anyone of a different faith…YOU will not convince them, but the Holy Spirit will, so say a little prayer that the Holy Spirit will convict them of faith in the One True Truine God of the Catholic faith. Don’t bother using words to preach to them, they won’t listen if they are so minded as to keep arguing with you, just preach the Gospel by your life…Friend they are looking to convert you and they won’t back down to agree with you!

Keep your peace with them and that speaks more than all of this arguing.

I simply couldn’t get past this when I was being asked to join Islam…if Jesus didn’t die on the Cross then my sins are not ‘paid for’ in His Sacrifice and I am too weak to ‘pay for’ my own sins all by myself…without the Cross life is pointless, my possible eternal life is not won for me, there is no life, there is no Eternal life if Jesus did not die on the Cross. I simply could not believe that He didn’t die on the Cross, without the Cross of Christ this world and all it’s suffering does not make any sense. Jesus died on the Cross…period!

That’s what I think

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
[/quote]

Thanks Teresa, it’s a lovely post, but perhaps I need to clarify my position, I certainly am not in any danger of converting to Islam!
:slight_smile:
A young Catholic has asked me to get involved with this debate. He was having trouble witnessing his faith to some Muslim friends. I have been happy to be involved and my goal is nothing more than defending my wonderful faith against ridicule and to demonstrate to my young friend that he doesn’t need to worry, Catholicism always has the answer.

CA is a great place to get ideas when you are debating and this is one of my favourite uses for the site. When I am involved in a debate I often post questions like this here. My fellow Catholics often inspire me with there answers to new ideas and avenues of debate.

In any case, and as the author of answering Islam puts it-

*There are a number of reasons why Christians, if they are to be true to their faith and themselves, must be willing to answer Muslim objections and counter their arguments.
Firstly, if you cannot defend your faith, the Muslim will conclude that you may be fervent in your beliefs but cannot justify them. Your unwillingness to tackle the cutting-edges will persuade the Muslim that your religion is actually indefensible. Secondly, when you can not only state what you believe but can also effectively say why, the Muslim will be more inclined to listen to you, knowing you have personally tested the credibility of your beliefs and can convincingly defend them. Thirdly, when Muslims do become Christian believers, they invariably want to know right away what the evidences are for the faith they now profess, especially as they may well be challenged by Muslims to revert to Islam and will need to be well-trained to resist such pressures. The Apostle Peter stated very plainly that Christians must be ready to face the challenges put to them and also finely stated the spirit in which they should respond:

Always be prepared to make a defence to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence; and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behaviour in Christ may be put to shame. 1 Peter 3.15-16

The Apostle Paul never shirked the duty to substantiate what he believed with adequate proofs. While in the company of contentious Jews who thrived on controversy, he would “argue with them from the scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead” (Acts 17.2). He was not interested in a mere exchange of religious views, hoping his Gospel message would prove attractive enough merely by its presentation. He knew he had to be able to accredit everything he said if his detractors were to take him seriously. On another occasion he said “We destroy arguments and every proud obstacle to the knowledge of God” (2 Corinthians 10.5), proving himself to be a man who had mastered his subject and fully confident in his ability to endorse the truth of what he believed.

In Muslim evangelism it is essential that the Christian be able to counter the objections and arguments Muslims readily produce. In the next section we shall consider the spirit in which the Christian should respond.*


#19

[quote=shaker]Hello there,

This was a helpful read in dealing with the most common
Muslim arguments.

Facing the Muslim Challenge

I hope it helps.
[/quote]

Shaker- you were inspired by the Holy Spirit! That was great, thanks!!

:thumbsup:


#20

Simon of Cyrene was recruited to carry Jesus’ cross on the way to Calvary BECAUSE it was feared He would not make it there alive. He was beaten to an inch of His life…Literally!

Having spikes driven through His hands and feet would not make a traveler to India.

Jesus was encountered soon after His resurrection on the road to Emaus…He walked…and that is because He was in an immortal state at that occasion.

Over 500 disciples witnessed His Ascension into Heaven.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.