Jesus gives us His Own Mother as Mediatrix of all Graces


#21

Good enough for me.

More than happy to recognize her as Intercessor.

Again, good enough for me.


#22

Absolutely incorrect.

I challenge you to reference a post where I do so.
[/quote]

You say several things throughout your posts that lead me to that conclusion.

First you said:

Vonsalza4h
As an ex-Reformed Baptist who still has difficulty committing himself to the Rosary (that also goes to a parish where the priest tells me “that’s alright”), I enjoy reading about Marian devotion.

But I think some folks go a little too far with it. When your eyes are on Mary alone, you might need to reel-in your devotions a bit.

Since this thread is about the Church declaring the Doctrine of Mary, Mediatrix of all graces, I interpret this as you complaining that the Church is leading people to focus on Mary alone.

Then you said:

Vonsalza1h

Tis_Bearself:

Vonsalza:
When your eyes are on Mary alone, you might need to reel-in your devotions a bit.

It is impossible to have “your eyes…on Mary alone.”…

Oh, I’m old enough to know that man can make a false idol of anything. Anything at all.

So, if you don’t mean that the Church is making a false idol of Mary, who are you impugning?


#23

You need to add “The study of the”, (otherwise I guess you’re referring to a “soteriologue”, which I’ve never seen used) but that’s reasonably close.

No specific role beyond intercessor, that is correct. Her son does, though.

No, you posted a verse that shows we should all endure in faith and continue teaching for our benefit and the benefit of those that listen.

They’re not mutually exclusive in that your soteriology determines how you package your evangelism. But I can’t evangelize you into friendship with God. You choose. So there’s a pretty clean break there.

I’ve acknowledged her as theotokos and intercessor from the get-go. But again, your claim here requires there being no clear distinction between evangelism and soteriology. Which isn’t true. There is a distinction.

I never said that. I said the opposite, actually. Scroll up and look.


#24

Then what are you objecting to?


#25

Oh, I can’t control the cogs and wheels in your mind. But you said that I made a statement that doesn’t exist. I’ll take this as your round-about concession of that fact.

Again, you interpret wrongly. “The Church” doesn’t err here, but people do. I think Marian hyper-devotion in Catholics damages the Church.

Specifically? No one. Conceptually? Anyone who would be tempted to use “Mediatrix of All Graces” to naturally conclude “Co-Redemptrix”.
The logical jump isn’t a big one. In fact, the distance between the two is difficult to define if one is cognizant of some of the finer theological points on “grace” and it’s role in the Catholic concept of salvation.

Personally, I think the assignment of this particular title was a terrible idea.


#26

If there is any encouragement in Christ,
any solace in love,
any participation in the Spirit,
any compassion and mercy,
complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love,
united in heart, thinking one thing. Phil. 2: 1-2

STOP IT you guys! Just STOP IT.


#27

Out of respect for the deacon, I cry off.


#28

I think we all need to have a good tone, which is what our Mother wants.

I hope we all can agree with Vatican II’s teaching that “there is a union of the Mother and the Son in the work of salvation”.

And I hope we can all agree with Pope John Paul II’s Encyclical Redemptoris Mater, which says that Jesus Crucified gave Mary to every single human person as his or her mother.


#29

I think we need to stop provoking other observant Catholics with posts that we either intend to be, or should know, are going to be provocative. Doing so shows an intention to “provoke” which is NOT what our Mother wants.

Then let us no longer judge one another, but rather resolve never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. Rom. 14:13


#30

[quote=“Vonsalza, post:25, topic:451566, full:true”]
Oh, I can’t control the cogs and wheels in your mind. But you said that I made a statement that doesn’t exist. I’ll take this as your round-about concession of that fact. [/quote]

On the contrary, look at what I said. I didn’t enclose my statement in quotes and attribute the exact words to you. I said that you claimed that the Church made an idol of Mary. Thus, I summarized the conclusion that I drew from your posts.

Again, you interpret wrongly. “The Church” doesn’t err here, but people do. I think Marian hyper-devotion in Catholics damages the Church.

What you describe as Marian hyper devotion, I describe as precisely what the Church Teaches:

Dictionary : HYPERDULIA | Catholic Culture


HYPERDULIA The special veneration due to the Blessed Virgin Mary. It is substantially less than the cultus latria (adoration), which is due to God alone.

Specifically? No one. Conceptually? Anyone who would be tempted to use “Mediatrix of All Graces” to naturally conclude “Co-Redemptrix”.

That’s everyone. Because that is the other side of that coin.

The logical jump isn’t a big one. In fact, the distance between the two is difficult to define if one is cognizant of some of the finer theological points on “grace” and it’s role in the Catholic concept of salvation.

The Co Mediatrix, is the Co Redemptix. It is the same Doctrine which is laid out in Scripture:

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.

Personally, I think the assignment of this particular title was a terrible idea.

I think it a wonderful idea. But I suppose you probably know that by now.


#31

SIGH
:disappointed_relieved:


#32

There’s too many big words in this thread.
I have this awesome friend named Jesus. He is the best friend ever. And his mom is awesome too. When one of Jesus’ friends is feeling bad, or is having a falling out with Jesus, or not coming over to visit so much, she always knows what is wrong, wants to help and gives good advice. She loves all of us just like we were her own kids, except that of course she loves Jesus the most, which is fine because we all love him the most. She’s always putting in a good word for us with Jesus and making us feel like part of a big extended family. I like visiting Jesus and his mom and talking to them both.


#33

This… the Church recognizes Mary as a mediator, but not mediatrix of all graces. This is clear from the VII documents. The last formal statement by the Church is referenced here:

http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/societies/PAMI/12/index.html

Here are the most pertinent parts of the statement:

  1. The titles, as proposed, are ambiguous, as they can be understood in very different ways. Furthermore, the theological direction taken by the Second Vatican Council, which did not wish to define any of these titles, should not be abandoned. The Second Vatican Council did not use the title “Coredemptrix”, and uses “Mediatrix” and “Advocate” in a very moderate way (cf. Lumen Gentium, 62). In fact, from the time of Pope Pius XII, the term “Coredemptrix” has not been used by the papal Magisterium in its significant documents. There is evidence that Pope Pius XII himself intentionally avoided using it. With respect to the title “Mediatrix,” the history of the question should not be forgotten: in the first decades of this century the Holy See entrusted the study of the possibility of its definition to three different commissions, the result of which was that the Holy See decided to set the question aside.

  2. Even if the titles were assigned a content which could be accepted as belonging to the deposit of the faith, the definition of these titles, however, in the present situation would be lacking in theological clarity, as such titles and the doctrines inherent in them still require further study in a renewed Trinitarian, ecclesiological and anthropological perspective. Finally, the theologians, especially the non-Catholics, were sensitive to the ecumenical difficulties which would be involved in such a definition.

Hope this helps educate those who put forward the idea that the Church teaches that Mary is the Mediatrix of all Graces… which the Church does not


#34

Here are some articles I found… from EWTN https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm

Catholic Answers: http://www.cuf.org/2007/05/faith-fact-co-redemptrix-mediatrix-of-all-graces-and-advocate/

"Fr. Robichaud continued:

With regard to the thesis that Mary is the Dispensatrix of every single grace, some theologians consider it doctrina catholica, that is, a doctrine which is taught in the whole Church, e.g., in papal encyclicals, but which is not always infallibly proposed. The greater number of theologians, however, classify it as fidei proxima, that is to say, a truth which, in the almost unanimous consent of theologians, is contained in the written or orally transmitted word of God.

While admitting the validity of the above notes, we would like to advance a personal opinion, . . . as de fide divina, that is to say, a truth which is formally contained in divine revelation. . . .

As Fr. (Reginald) Garrigou- Lagrange says, it (Mary’s Mediation) is proximately definable.[21]

http://taylormarshall.com/2011/05/is-mary-mediatrix-of-all-graces.html

“2.Pope Benedict XV institute a liturgical feast of Mary, Mediatrix of All Graces”

So we can make a very good case for Mary being the Mediatrix of All Graces. I personally believe it.


#35

There are also these quotes by the Popes https://stpeterslist.com/18-quotes-by-roman-pontiffs-on-mary-as-mediatrix


#36

There are different levels of teachings… even if something has not been declared a dogma, doesn’t mean that it’s a teaching of the Church on another level


#37

I read in this thread:
60. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, “for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all”.

1 Tim clearly states:
For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human (1 Tim. 2:5 NAB).

Jesus is our Saviour. We are not saved by the life of Mary, she did not suffer and die for us.

What exactly do people want to imply by calling Mary the Mediatrix of all graces? Does it mean that all grace is given through her? It needlessly offends Protestants and does not add anything to our Faith.

They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:24 NAB).


#38

Mary is our Mother in the order of grace (Vatican II), so it’s important that we have a personal relationship with her. This is the tender gift Jesus gave us to be close to him.

She is constantly helping every human person.

Mary is truly the Refuge of Sinners and our Advocate and Helper (Vatican II), and Spouse of the Holy Spirit, our Comforter (JPII)

Popes have said repeatedly–in Encyclicals-- that every grace comes from Jesus through Mary. None have contradicted this. Doctors of the Church and great theologians like Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange have said the same. So it is the teaching of the Church.

Vatican II only said things which support this unniversal, maternal mediation, such as the quotations I’ve given.

I’ve quoted Blessed Pope Pius IX and Pope Leo XIII

Here is Pope St. Pius X:

The source, then, is Jesus Christ, of whose fullness we have all received” (John i., 16), “from whom the whole body, being compacted and fitly joined together by what every joint supplieth, according to the operation in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in charity” (Ephesians iv., 16). But Mary, as St. Bernard justly remarks, is the channel (Serm. de temp on the Nativ. B. V. De Aquaeductu n. 4); or, if you will, the connecting portion the function of which is to join the body to the head and to transmit to the body the influences and volitions of the head - We mean the neck. Yes, says St. Bernardine of Sienna, “she is the neck of Our Head, by which He communicates to His mystical body all spiritual gifts” (Quadrag. de Evangel. aetern. Serm. x., a. 3, c. iii.)"
http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-x/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum.html


#39

Proverbs 27:17New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

17 Iron is sharpened by iron;
one person sharpens another.


#40

Yes, we can all help each other to deepen our relationship with our Mother of Peace.

As Pope Leo XIII says, just as nobody goes the Father except through Jesus, also nobody can go to Jesus except through Mary.

I’m of the view that it is not possible to venerate Mary too much, since, as Pope Pius IX says, it’s not possible to imagine a greater goodness than Mary besides God Himself

One could worship her as if she is God, but that would not be true devotion to her, since she always leads us to Jesus. Short of claiming that she is God, I don’t see how one could venerate her too much.

My belief is that we venerate her far, far too little.

Here is Pope Pius IX:

"From the very beginning, and before time began, the eternal Father chose and prepared for his only-begotten Son a Mother in whom the Son of God would become incarnate and from whom, in the blessed fullness of time, he would be born into this world. Above all creatures did God so loved her that truly in her was the Father well pleased with singular delight. Therefore, far above all the angels and all the saints so wondrously did God endow her with the abundance of all heavenly gifts poured from the treasury of his divinity that this mother, ever absolutely free of all stain of sin, all fair and perfect, would possess that fullness of holy innocence and sanctity than which, under God, one cannot even imagine anything greater, and which, outside of God, no mind can succeed in comprehending fully.


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