Jesus is fully God

and fully man.

I’ve been having a conversation with a catholic about this for several weeks. Bear with me as I go between websites to get the conversation over here. I’m positive I’m right and she’s pretty well told me I’m crazy.

It all started out with her saying that God has always been and that Jesus didn’t come along until much later.

Her: Why do you feel this way? So God is also Jesus? Is it in the Bible stating so? I’m curious now.

There is the trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Why would Jesus be praying to His Father just before he got arrested, while His Apostles slept?

Why does Jesus say, if it’s your will Father, let your will be.

This isn’t the exact wording, but you know what I mean.

There’s many more incidents when Jesus is talking to His Father.

You know don’t forget God is the Almighty and Jesus is not only Holy, but also man.

Me: Jesus is the second person of the Trinity. Jesus has always been and always will be. Jesus didn’t just come along, He’s always been, always will be. Jesus IS God. Jesus became man, with all the weaknesses of man. But He never ceased being God. Never sinned.

Her: Show me where Jesus is God in the Bible, because some verses then just don’t make any sense.

Me: Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God. The Bible presents Christ as unique. He is both a perfect man and is co-equal and co-eternal with God the Father. He is one person with two complete natures - human and divine. Jesus Christ was God incarnate and he also was a complete human being. These two natures have come together into the one person of Jesus Christ.

He is “the second person of the Trinity” - He arrived here fully with the Holy Spirit - always was/always is - the Great “I Am”

Immanuel/Emmanuel = Jesus Christ = "God With Us. Please read John 1:1, read all of John.

Her: where in the bible does Jesus say I am god worship me.? Answer me that.

Me: I can’t believe this. Why not just ask your priest?

Her: i don’t need to ask anybody. God gave me the answer. If Jesus was God why didn’t he do anything until he was baptized. If he did then the holy spirit didnt need to come.

Me: I can’t believe this.
@@@@@
She won’t talk to me anymore and is calling me nasty names everywhere.

Am I all wrong?

You are absolutely right. I feel sad for your poorly catechized friend. Please pray for her, share this thread with her and encourage her to go to her priest.

And she should look at what the CHURCH teaches on this not what she has erroneously come to believe.

It shows how lost she is that she would worship Jesus if he is not God.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c2a2.htm

Actually this section of the Catholic Catechism better addresses the matter at hand.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p1.htm

III. TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN

464 The unique and altogether singular event of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and part man, nor does it imply that he is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He became truly man while remaining truly God. Jesus Christ is true God and true man.

During the first centuries, the Church had to defend and clarify this truth of faith against the heresies that falsified it.

465 The first heresies denied not so much Christ’s divinity as his true humanity (Gnostic Docetism). From apostolic times the Christian faith has insisted on the true incarnation of God’s Son “come in the flesh”.87 But already in the third century, the Church in a council at Antioch had to affirm against Paul of Samosata that Jesus Christ is Son of God by nature and not by adoption. The first ecumenical council of Nicaea in 325 confessed in its Creed that the Son of God is “begotten, not made, of the same substance (homoousios) as the Father”, and condemned Arius, who had affirmed that the Son of God “came to be from things that were not” and that he was “from another substance” than that of the Father.88

466 The Nestorian heresy regarded Christ as a human person joined to the divine person of God’s Son. Opposing this heresy, St. Cyril of Alexandria and the third ecumenical council, at Ephesus in 431, confessed "that the Word, uniting to himself in his person the flesh animated by a rational soul, became man."89 Christ’s humanity has no other subject than the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it and made it his own, from his conception. For this reason the Council of Ephesus proclaimed in 431 that Mary truly became the Mother of God by the human conception of the Son of God in her womb: "Mother of God, not that the nature of the Word or his divinity received the beginning of its existence from the holy Virgin, but that, since the holy body, animated by a rational soul, which the Word of God united to himself according to the hypostasis, was born from her, the Word is said to be born according to the flesh."90

467 The Monophysites affirmed that the human nature had ceased to exist as such in Christ when the divine person of God’s Son assumed it. Faced with this heresy, the fourth ecumenical council, at Chalcedon in 451, confessed:

Following the holy Fathers, we unanimously teach and confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ: the same perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity, the same truly God and truly man, composed of rational soul and body; consubstantial with the Father as to his divinity and consubstantial with us as to his humanity; “like us in all things but sin”. He was begotten from the Father before all ages as to his divinity and in these last days, for us and for our salvation, was born as to his humanity of the virgin Mary, the Mother of God.91
We confess that one and the same Christ, Lord, and only-begotten Son, is to be acknowledged in two natures without confusion, change, division or separation. The distinction between the natures was never abolished by their union, but rather the character proper to each of the two natures was preserved as they came together in one person (prosopon) and one hypostasis.92

468 After the Council of Chalcedon, some made of Christ’s human nature a kind of personal subject. Against them, the fifth ecumenical council, at Constantinople in 553, confessed that "there is but one hypostasis [or person], which is our Lord Jesus Christ, one of the Trinity."93 Thus everything in Christ’s human nature is to be attributed to his divine person as its proper subject, not only his miracles but also his sufferings and even his death: "He who was crucified in the flesh, our Lord Jesus Christ, is true God, Lord of glory, and one of the Holy Trinity."94

469 The Church thus confesses that Jesus is inseparably true God and true man. He is truly the Son of God who, without ceasing to be God and Lord, became a man and our brother:

“What he was, he remained and what he was not, he assumed”, sings the Roman Liturgy.95 And the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom proclaims and sings: "O only-begotten Son and Word of God, immortal being, you who deigned for our salvation to become incarnate of the holy Mother of God and ever-virgin Mary, you who without change became man and were crucified, O Christ our God, you who by your death have crushed death, you who are one of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit, save us!"96

John 8:58
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

In saying this, Jesus used the personal name of God, “I am”.


John1: 1-5
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things came to be through him,
and without him nothing came to be.b
What came to be
through him was life,
and this life was the light of the human race;c
the light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness has not overcome it.

Jesus says that he is God over and over and over.

I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. (Matthew 12:6)

The only thing greater than the temple is God who dwells in the Temple.

***something greater than Jonah is here. *(Matthew 12:41)

The only thing greater than a prophet is God who gives the prophet the words to speak.

something greater than Solomon is here. (Matthew 12:42)

The only thing greater than Solomon is God who gave Solomon his wisdom.

***And he said to them, “The Son of man is lord of the sabbath.” *(Luke 6:5)

The only one who can be lord of the sabbath is God who gave the sabbath to man.

***and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel.” *(Mark 1:15)

"At hand’ means right here in front of you, able to be touched with your hand. Jesus himself is the kingdom of God who is “at hand.” The Jews understood that he called himself God…

But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working still, and I am working.” This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God. (John 5:17:18)

It goes on and on like this. There are dozens of examples. Peter the Pope clearly calls Jesus God.

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:1)

-Tim-

You are correct. Jesus Christ is True God & True Man. You may want to suggest to her that she inguire about Adult Faith Formation or Bible Study classes if they are given in her Parish. She also needs to speak with a Priest. It sounds as if she is in need of correct Catholic Catechetical instruction.

You are correct. There were some early Christians who argued that Jesus was a man first who became God later. The Church definitely rejected this.

Thanks.

When she said that bit about how Jesus did nothing until His baptism, I wanted to cry.

To me, it sounds like she is listening to the JWs.

Can you answer therefore, why Jesus is praying to the Father?

That is a very valid question don’t you think?

Also if God is Jesus, then how can anything be in any way whatsoever greater than Him? Jesus did say that The Father is greater than Him. What is the response to these dilemmas?

:slight_smile:

.

If Jesus is God, then why did He say the Father was greater than He?
by Matt Slick

“You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.’” (John 14:28).

Jesus said the Father was greater than He not because Jesus is not God but because Jesus was also a man; and as a man, he was in a lower position. He was “. . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . .” (Heb. 2:9). Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus “emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . .”

carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/if-jesus-god-then-why-did-he-say-father-was-greater-he


Jesus prayed in His humanity. Being fully human and fully God, his humanity prayed to God the Father.

So are you saying that you can separate Jesus humanity from His Divinity?

If His human nature was praying to the Father and it was His human nature that was not greater than the Father, then you are discounting His fully Divine incarnation within His humanity.

.

He is God. All things are possible yes?

It is a great mystery but if God is all powerful he can manifest himself however he likes. His divinity is never separated but his humanity is similar to us and our experience. A model to us. He hungered, he felt pain, he died. But God in his divinity overcame all this and manifested himself in his glory at the resurrection.

Jesus tells us “I am” the ineffable name of God. In fact the Jews tried to stone him for blasphemy at this.

John 1 tells us he is the beginning and the end. That Jesus is God. The scripture is also clear there is one God not multiple. As such a mystery of the Trinity develops.

Not at all! Jesus is fully God! But, He is also FULLY human. Jesus, the fully human man died on the cross, but Jesus, son of God, is eternal and does not die.

The Incarnation

The doctrine of the incarnation in Christian teaching is that Jesus, who is the second person of the Trinity, added to himself human nature and became a man.

The Bible says that Jesus is God in flesh, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . . and the word became flesh and dwelt among us,” (John 1:1, 14); and, “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,” (Col. 2:9). Jesus, therefore, has two natures. He is both God and man.

AS GOD
He is worshiped (Matt. 2:2, 11; 14:33; 28:9)
He is prayed to (Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 1:2)
He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8)
He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1)
He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15)
He knew all things (John 21:17)
He gives eternal life (John 10:28; 17:2)
The fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9)

AS MAN
He worshiped the Father (John 17)
He prayed to the Father (John 17:1)
He was called man (Mark 15:39; John 19:5).
He was called Son of Man (John 9:35-37)
He was tempted (Matt. 4:1)
He grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52)
He died (Rom. 5:8)
He has a body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)

As a man, Jesus needed to pray. When He was praying, he was not praying to Himself but to God the Father.

This is best understood by taking a detailed look at the Nicene Creed. Developed in the 4th century to describe these mysteries, it reads;

“Our profession of faith begins with God, for God is the First and the Last, the beginning and the end of everything. The Credo begins with God the Father, for the Father is the first divine person of the Most Holy Trinity; our Creed begins with the creation of heaven and earth, for creation is the beginning and the foundation of all God’s works.”
—the Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 198

Creed:

The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Another one of her notes to me was how Jesus is “half and half.” Told her that He is fully God and fully man. I know she chats regularly with a JW. I don’t like it. She won’t listen to me at all.

Send her the link to this thread. Perhaps she will read it. She is not proclaiming Catholic truth at all.

Hi,

Maybe asking her questions will help.
Here are some more verses where Jesus makes it clear that He is God.

defendingthebride.com/je/divine.html

.

Our lord will call us in His good time.
Wouldn’t it be cool hooking with this ol lady and having a free life?
youtube.com/watch?v=zvG_CAlNoFQ

This still implies that Jesus’ Divinity was separate from His humanity…

.

Go straight to John 1.and ask her to read the entire chapter.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God…
The only Son, God, who is at the Father’s side, has revealed him.

She also needs to read closely what we proclaim when we recite the Nicene Creed during the Mass. God incarnate, Jesus as fully God and fully man is a basic teaching of the Catholic Church. It is mystery to be contemplated, but not to be understood. ,

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