Jesus is God Means Mary Is The Mother of God?


#1

O.K., now that we succeeded in totally derailing poor RyanL’s thread about “Apologetics Zingers” with my innocent contribution (sorry Ryan), let’s start a new thread about the following statement:

Jesus is God
+Mary is the Mother of Jesus
= Mary is the Mother of God

Some folks (well, one non-Catholic Christian individual, anyway) took exception to this, going so far as to say that this is not true because Jesus is not God!

What say you?

:hmmm:


#2

No, Mary is “mother of the non-God part of Jesus.” OK, I’m done. I’ll let sandusky take over from there. :whacky:

Phil P


#3

Yes, she’s the Mother of God and the Queen of Heaven! She was born without Original Sin, she interceded for people to her Son (the wedding at Cana is a classic example) during and after her life, and she lived a chaste, sinless life, and when she died she was assumed into heaven and crowned Queen. Wonderful saint! She’s not a god and not to be worshipped, though. She has appeared to people throughout the ages to such places as Guadalupe in Mexico, Fatima in Portugal, Lourdes in France, asking us to, as she said to the waitstaff at Cana, “Do whatever He [Jesus] tells you.”


#4

Even the 3 pillars of the reformation called her that.


#5

i believe that if someone denies that mary is the mother of God or says that she is only the mother of the “man jesus” then they are preaching the gospel of antichrist. scripture says that the antichrist is someone who “desolveth christ” and to deny that mary is the mother of God desolves jesus into two persons. this is exactly what the catholic church said about the nestorian heresy in 431


#6

“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death”

Mary is also the Spouse Of The Holy Spirit

Saying Jesus is not God is a denial of the Holy Trinity.

My opinions, as usual, are not endorsed nor opposed by my 3 cats


#7

Simple logic!

Mary is the mother of Jesus
Jesus is God
Therefore, mother of God

Now Mary is not older than God, nor did she create God. However, she gave birth to God in the sense that God did pass through her womb. She likely nursed him, and raised him. Those are motherly actions.

The Bible explicitly says in Luke 1:43, “And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”

(bolding mine)


#8

Some would argue that God has existed before anything else, and Virgin Mary was born by Her parents; therefore, he/she concludes that She cannot be the Mother of God.

How do you answer to that?

Thanks!


#9

Luke 1:35 - the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”).

Luke 1:28 - “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase “full of grace” is translated from the Greek word “kecharitomene.” This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Luke 1:38 - Mary’s fiat is “let it be done to me according to thy word.” Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.

Luke 1:42 - “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary.

Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth’s use of “Mother of my Lord” (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used “Adonai” which means Lord God) is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God” which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus’ human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).

Luke 1:44 - Mary’s voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth’s womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.

Luke 1:46 - Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.

Luke 1:48 - Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary” prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?


#10

Some would argue that Mary supplied only Jesus’ physical body; not His Divinity. Likewise your mother supplied only your physical body; not your soul. However, I would not send a Mother’s Day card which thanked the producer of my physical body; it could be hazardous to my health. :wink:


#11

It sounds like an incubator LoL
No doubt, there are people saying that Mary is just an incubator to Jesus.:rolleyes:


#12

Hi All,

From the Council of Ephesus (431)

  1. If anyone does not confess that Emmanuel is God in truth, and therefore that the holy virgin is the mother of God (for she bore in a fleshly way the Word of God become flesh, let him be anathema.

To read the minutes of this council click on

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/EPHESUS.HTM

Verbum


#13

My bible says Mary was “highly favored” in Luke1-28 NIV
But in Jn 1:14, it says Jesus was "full of grace"
I don’t have any bible that says Mary was “full of grace” in LK1:28.
Also how do you feel about Jesus’ response to the woman in
Lk11:27-28?
Do you think he was taking glory away from Mary?


#14

I must say I’m rather confused…

First, let me say that the syllogism as stated seems sound. And no disagreement with the major premise here, either…

But it does remind me of another syllogism that’s driven me absolutely crazy for quite some time, namely that since Jesus is God, and Jesus is a human male, then it follows that God is a human male. True?

The above is structured exactly the same as the original syllogism, and based on irrefutable facts, as is the original syllogism (for Christians, at any rate). And if either one is true, doesn’t this also have serious implications for Trinitarian doctrine? After all, the other two Members are also God, but don’t have a mother (or a Y chromosome, for that matter). So what gives?

Very, very confusing… :whacky:

Zirconia


#15

I once went in circles for quite a while with a coworker on this.

“So, you believe that Jesus is God, right?”,
“yes”
“And that Mary was/is His mother, right?”
“Right”
“So, Mary is the Mother of God.”
“No.”
“so, you’re saying Jesus isn’t God?”
“No, Jesus is God.”
“Then you don’t believe that Mary is His mother?”
“No, Mary is His Mother,”
“Then Mary is the Mother of God.”
“No.”
“Well, if Jesus is God, and Mary is His mother, how is Mary not the Mother of God?”

He didn’t have an answer.

The closest anyone has ever come to a logical Protestant explanation is that God is Trinity, and Mary didn’t give birth to the Trinity, she only gave birth on one person thereof. The fact that that one Person was/is wholly God doesn’t seem to enter into the argument.

OK, so let me get this straight.

You believe that Jesus is God.

You believe that Mary conceived God in her womb, gave birth to God, suckled God at her breast, rocked God to sleep at night, changed God’s dirty diapers, and somehow managed to do all of this while not being the Mother of God?

I have badly sprained my cerebral cortex on more than one occasion trying to get my mind around this.

Excuse me, I have to go pop the top off my skull and ice my brain.


#16

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_8_218.gif… Phil…behave…

%between%


#17

I think that some people do not have a full understanding of what being Incarnate means. They seperate Jesus out into God parts and human parts. It sounds silly but that is what these people are doing.

Perhaps explaining what being The Incarnate-God made flesh-actually means might assist them in understanding the term Mother of God and why it is important to refer to Mary as such could assist them in understanding the phrase.

When Jesus rose from the dead it was obviously important that his physical body rise also. It wasn’t just his soul that went to heaven. There both combined. I don’t think that people really understand this.


#18

[quote=water]Some would argue that God has existed before anything else, and Virgin Mary was born by Her parents; therefore, he/she concludes that She cannot be the Mother of God.
[/quote]

Jesus is 100% man and 100% God in a single hypostasis; inseparable. This was established at the Council of Nicea, iirc, please correct me if I’m mistaken.

Mary cannot give birth to only Christ’s humanity and not His divinity, as His humanity and divinity cannot be separated. Thus, Mary gave birth to Jesus as 100% man as well as 100% God. So although to think Mary as the Mother of God can be awkward for some, it makes complete sense.


#19

My bible says Mary was “highly favored” in Luke1-28 NIV
But in Jn 1:14, it says Jesus was "full of grace"
I don’t have any bible that says Mary was “full of grace” in LK1:28.

if your bible says “highly favored” in luke 1:28 than your bible is translating this wrong. the greek word is “kecaretomine” which is a unique title given only to mary, no one else in all of scripture has this title. this word implies that mary was “full of grace in a past event with the effects of that grace continuing until the present.” translating this word as “highly favored” does not cut it.

Also how do you feel about Jesus’ response to the woman in
Lk11:27-28?
Do you think he was taking glory away from Mary?

no, jesus is not saying that mary was not blessed, if he were saying this it would contradict luke chaper 1 which says that mary is “most blessed amoung woman.” instead he is simply emphasizing the importance of heeding the word of God and excepting it, which mary perfectly fullfilled when she said “let it be done to me occording to your will.” even elizibeth by the power of the holy spirit said “blessed is she who believed.”


#20

But your translation is flawed…

[size=3]When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

Just because translators mess it up does not make a good case for your belief.

As for your reference to Luke 11:27-28, the Lord wasn’t dissing or lowering the place of the Blessed Virgin, but essentially refocusing the woman (and the crowd) on the real topic that He was speaking about.

Let me turn that around on you a bit, as I’m sure Our Lord was trying to do. Look here at what he says is the focus of what He is preaching.

"Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"
Does this not point up hearing the word of God and keeping it? How do you feel about the fact that that verse right there places emphasis on works. Keeping the word of God? That certainly does not fit in with the “faith alone” belief system does it?

Back on topic tho: Do you see anyone else who might even remotely qualify as the Mother of God? All three of the “Pillars of the Reformation” believed this:

Mother of God

Martin Luther: “In this work whereby she was made the Mother of God, so many and such good things were given her that no one can grasp them… Not only was Mary the mother of Him who is born [in Bethlehem], but of Him who, before the world, was eternally born of the Father, from a Mother in time and at the same time man and God.” (The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, Vol. 7, page 572)

John Calvin: “It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of His Son, granted her the highest honor…Elizabeth calls Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God.” (Calvini Opera, Corpus reformatorum, Braunschweig-Berlin, 1863-1900, Vol. 45, page 348 and 335.)

Ulrich Zwingli: “It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God.” ( Zwingli Opera, Corpus reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., Op. Comp., Vol.
6, I, page 639.)

Can you refute them?[/size]


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