Jesus is God. Or...Jesus is the Divine Expression of God

Can there be a distinction?

When Christians say “Jesus is God” (and I am Christian), They inadvertantly create many false assumptions to those outside of the religion.

  1. God left heaven and became human. No God in heaven during this time, God was on earth walking around being Jesus.

That offends the sensibilities of any who think that God is way more than any human could ever be. Rightly so.

  1. That God, if not walking around on earth, is only an elevated human in heaven, know as Jesus.

This of course is not what Jesus taught. He clearly revealed that His Father was greater than He and that His Father was the source of all He was, and remained ‘in heaven’ while Jesus lived his life on earth.

So, the more accurate understanding of Jesus is that he was created, by God, for the distinct purpose and was annointed to this distinct purpose, of being a pure expression of divine action, thought and presence in a human life.

He was a perfect creation of God, not unlike Adam, but where as Adam was unable to keep only Gods will and thus caused all of humanity to fall from perfect grace, to die instead of live eternally, Jesus was sent to earth to be that human who would not deny God’s will for his own, who would do ONLY God’s will and not his own, and in that would be the perfect divine example of God’s will for all of humanity. It is by his perfect obedience and his sinlessness we would be able to be reconciled back to God, healing the separation that was created by Adam when he disobeyed Gods will and acted on his own.

So, Jesus is the Divine Expression of God, and in that, since we see NO, none, nada, zip, zero human will or ego being acted upon or taught or expressed through Jesus in his human incarnation, we can in a sense say “He is God” as he is ONE with God in purpose and action and word and deed. This is what humanity needed. That he is ‘all of God’ can not be considered true, simply because he himself pointed to the Father as that which filled him with the way, the works, the light, the power and authority he was granted over all of earth and heaven. It came from the Father. But to humanity, God sent Jesus to be divine, to be his perfect expression of God’s will for all of humanity to either embrace or reject. Adam had the chance, to embrace or reject Gods will in the Garden, he rejected (disobeyed) and was caste into the flesh, to suffer and die. We are born from this fall, to suffer and die. Jesus was Gods gift to redeem us, now that we have been given Gods perfect will in Him, we can not say, but I did not know I was going against it, and we can choose it and fully obey it, not being condemned by Adams choice which we had no part of. That we are given the Way back to the garden, back to eternity out of our human life after death is the joyful news brought in Jesus, who was the human emissary of truth God created and sent to earth for us outside of the garden, to show us the way back home.

This is what Jesus is. Divine. And the perfect love of God in the flesh for all to see and accept and embrace.

Jesus offended sensibilities all the time. See the Gospels.

  1. That God, if not walking around on earth, is only an elevated human in heaven, know as Jesus.

This of course is not what Jesus taught. He clearly revealed that His Father was greater than He and that His Father was the source of all He was, and remained ‘in heaven’ while Jesus lived his life on earth.

I didn’t realize God was limited to being in one place at a time. :shrug:

So, the more accurate understanding of Jesus is that he was created, by God, for the distinct purpose and was annointed to this distinct purpose, of being a pure expression of divine action, thought and presence in a human life.

Jesus was not created; all was created through him (John 1). Jesus identified himself as the tetragrammaton (YHWH) - “before Abraham was, I AM.” I AM = YHWH.

He was a perfect creation of God, not unlike Adam, but where as Adam was unable to keep only Gods will and thus caused all of humanity to fall from perfect grace, to die instead of live eternally, Jesus was sent to earth to be that human who would not deny God’s will for his own, who would do ONLY God’s will and not his own, and in that would be the perfect divine example of God’s will for all of humanity. It is by his perfect obedience and his sinlessness we would be able to be reconciled back to God, healing the separation that was created by Adam when he disobeyed Gods will and acted on his own.

Where is the scripture that says the Son of God/Logos was created? Doesn’t exist.

So, Jesus is the Divine Expression of God, and in that, since we see NO, none, nada, zip, zero human will or ego being acted upon or taught or expressed through Jesus in his human incarnation, we can in a sense say “He is God” as he is ONE with God in purpose and action and word and deed.

His temptation in the wilderness and doubt in the garden of Gethsemene was not human will/ego? Does not Hebrews say he was “tempted in every way?” How do you reconcile these situations and statements in the Bible that clearly indicate there was a human will at work?

This is what humanity needed. That he is ‘all of God’ can not be considered true, simply because he himself pointed to the Father as that which filled him with the way, the works, the light, the power and authority he was granted over all of earth and heaven. It came from the Father. But to humanity, God sent Jesus to be divine, to be his perfect expression of God’s will for all of humanity to either embrace or reject. Adam had the chance, to embrace or reject Gods will in the Garden, he rejected (disobeyed) and was caste into the flesh, to suffer and die. We are born from this fall, to suffer and die. Jesus was Gods gift to redeem us, now that we have been given Gods perfect will in Him, we can not say, but I did not know I was going against it, and we can choose it and fully obey it, not being condemned by Adams choice which we had no part of. That we are given the Way back to the garden, back to eternity out of our human life after death is the joyful news brought in Jesus, who was the human emissary of truth God created and sent to earth for us outside of the garden, to show us the way back home.

The Logos (which Jesus was) was not created.

This is what Jesus is. Divine. And the perfect love of God in the flesh for all to see and accept and embrace.

Interesting how you managed to write all that without quoting a single scripture that addresses Jesus’ nature.

I don’t think that we can worry about sounding silly when speaking the Truth. Yes, we need to explain things to those who do not know of Jesus, but we cannot worry about symantics with God

What you propose is a heresy called Arianism, that was definitively refuted at the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea. From that Council we received the Nicene Creed, where we profess belief in the consubstantiality of God (homoousion).

You might want to read On the Incarnation by Saint Athanasius, which directly addresses these issues.

Let me clarify. Jesus WAS created, in the human flesh. Was that body not created? Did it not involve a miracle? Jesus, human being, was created, the God within Him, that was all He ever expressed, was not created, since it was God.

I am writing about understanding, not to debate text. Spirit of the law, the meaning which eludes when using ‘the church says this and the church says that’.

Saying Jesus is God and Jesus (a human in the flesh who walked the earth) was the perfect divine expression of God are not that different, but they bring a whole different understanding to the reality of the one humans on earth interacted with when Jesus was standing before them.

I never said God couldn’t be in more than one place, but you inserted that thought in as some sort of defense or proof.

God is in ALL things. We have God in us, as Jesus taught He was in us and the Father was in him. Of course that doesn’t mean God leaves anywhere to be in all places, since He is everywhere already but many do not grasp this. I was pointing out how some ways of framing what was done in Jesus become fuel to keep understanding away instead of fostering greater insight.

Does stating Jesus is the perfect divine expression of God in the flesh, take away anything from what was delivered to humanity through him? There was no human will being expressed, but you can not deny he was in a human body of flesh and bone, that he required food, thirsted, suffered and died. This is the thing that stops many from looking at the perfect will expressed in this human form which would guide our understanding of what we should embrace. The statement “Jesus is God”, for many it reduces God to human status alone and they forget the rest. It is not about being ‘chastized’ it is about missing the mark with understanding, and striving for deeper insight and truth should always be the goal.

What about** this human life qualifies you to think that Jesus is worthy of being recognized as God (divine) (which I do not deny in any degree) and not like all other humans? Are any other humans who revealed the perfect divine expression of God on earth? Did the prophecies of the Messiah not outline that he would do only what God willed and nothing more? Why would Jesus say we would do the works that he did and more, if he was here being “God” and not a divine human example of Gods will? Are we being told we will be God** since you state he is God and he said we would do works like him? That is more offensive don’t you think?

He framed his relation to God as the Son and the Father, two separate identities, as we all know we are not our fathers, but we are a part of their dna and a part of them as humans. The trinity attempts to delineate this because Jesus himself did so. Would God say, I get all of my power from the Father when He is the Father?

Jesus never said “I am God”, but he did clearly describe what he was and that he was divine, with the full power and authority of God over heaven and earth.

Jesus is God because all things are God at their most truest level, nothing exists outside of God. So be it. What does that prove?

God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Earth is God. How does that help teach the Word (the will) of God to humanity? It is Jesus human walk on earth that is the power, the message, the truth, the Word, the light, the WAY for us to follow. It is the divine and perfect expression of God, in a human form, which would suffer as humans do. Does God suffer and die? No, but the One he created** in a human form **through human birth process would. And by that we are able to understand that we too are more than flesh and bones, we are all given to lay down our flesh, but the divine nature of our inner being is eternally connected to that which created us, just as Jesus taught. God was in Him, He was in God and He is in us.

Does that make me “God”? Or do I now understand how I am given the way to be a divine expression of God, albeit not perfect like Jesus, but would be given the power to do great works as he did, healing, lifting up the poor, encouraging the downtrodden, by the total faith in Jesus who showed me and taught me this way? Is that not what he was saying? Did he not tell us we would be given this through our faith in Him, in what He had given and taught us, by the power of our Faith in His divine authority on Earth?

Do we not see him as a mediator, that which God created to connect us as human beings to His power and glory? I go through Jesus, the divine authority granted by God to all of humanity, to receive God in this life. But Jesus was given this authority , here is some scripture for you:

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is** given **unto me in heaven
and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the
Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things
whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of
the world. Amen.”(Matthew 28: 18-20)

. Would God need to grant authority to himself? Is God the Father of himself?

We are brought into our communion and relation with God through Jesus. In other religions, God remains disconnected, separate, where none can receive from Him. In Jesus we are reconciled, brought home, brought into communion, the separation bridged by the power and authority given to him by God. This is what Jesus taught. And that is the true good news.

I appreciate your referencing to the thoughts of other humans, but I am presenting what I see fully revealed in Jesus own words. No where did he say I must defer to any council of humans to discern His Way. It is there for all who seek it, one by one, without having to defer to any other human being to ‘clarify’ for them. I will read what you have given, as I have read volumes in not only Christs Word but in other world religions to gain a full picture of what humanity has concluded, derived and experienced with God, the divine source of all that is. It is that God gave me that intelligence which Jesus himself proclaimed was in all of us that I base my faith in Him on, not by the analysis and debates of ‘scholars’ or ‘church leaders’ who are no better or worse than I or anyone else is in coming to know God. The way is through Jesus and not through human scholars.

Note, I posted this in the Non-Catholic section because I reject the whole hierarchy created in the human sense in the Catholic church. Jesus did not teach that I must defer to any creed other than his Word.

Of course, you will most likely simply reject what I am presenting flat out because ‘church fathers’ deemed they had the absolute authority to decide what was and what was not ‘truth’ in Christ, this is the freedom we all have.

Peace!

Let me tell you about the new rules on here…

  1. If you support any sort of view that is different than what the mods believe, you will be banned. Discussion is not open for different and new ideas. Even if Catholicism is making a mistake, we support tradition.

  2. Everything the Catholic Church has ever done has been infallible. Therefore, there is no need for you to question anything about Catholicism, the Church is perfect. If the Church told you to kill someone, you should do it, no questions asked.

  3. Any rude and ignorant comments to others stating “You are not a true Catholic if you voted for Obama” will be accepted and is encouraged.

  4. God didn’t give you this conscience to use for yourself. You must substitute other peoples judgment for your own, and never question them, because their judgment is better.

  5. If you child someday asks you if they should use a condom, you should tell them “No, let yourself get HIV instead.”

Along the same lines, but kind of the flip side of the same coin is this thread:

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=332568

The Magisterium is quite Scriptural. It is the way Jesus desired His Church to be. You can visit the library here to read all about how Jesus instituted His Church:

Whoever listens to you [Apostles and their Successors the Bishops] hears me. (Luke 10:16)
The Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth (1 Timothy 3:15)
etc., etc., etc., etc.

So if we gain faith by intelligence, why not listen to those who are much smarter than you are? Why not take the wisdom of those who are more learned than you (both then and now)?

Here in lies your error. Why do you assume that faith is based on the human that is more intelligent? Why do you assume that these folk were ‘smarter than me’. And even if they were, is human intelligence the way we were we told to receive our discernment of God’s truth? Is it not the Holy Spirit that was promised to those who take upon them the name of Jesus and are baptized the ultimate source of knowledge? Faith precedes intelligence, not the other way around. Intelligence does not produce faith. Many times it works against it.

This is how the people are led astray. They are told they are not ‘qualified’ to receive what they were promised by Jesus they would receive, that Jesus demonstrated through many ‘ordinary’ people was Gods will and way. It was by their faith that they were healed, that they received, not by their intellect.

Perhaps you have been misled by those whom you supposed had superior intelligence than you. It isn’t your intelligence, it is God’s ability to work through your humble heart and open mind to guide you when you have submitted through faith, to Him that will bring you the truth of Jesus. This is what Jesus taught. He never said, Look only to those who will form a committee calling themselves superior to you who have more intelligence to you to know what I am bringing to you. He said you are perfect and you are a vehicle and you can receive, in your faith.

It was you who claimed that it was your own intelligence that was the basis of your faith. I was merely responding to your comment:

I was simply pointing out that if you do indeed think that intelligence is the way to faith and knowledge of God, why not listen to those more intelligent.

One certainly doesn’t need to be book smart to have faith in God. There have been many Saints who were not scholastically gifted. We are not judged on intelligence, but by heroic virtue.

Of course, even the lowliest of Saints knew that Jesus was a divine Person hypostatically united with a human nature and existing in the Most Holy Trinity. They might not understand the fullness of those Mysteries (indeed none of us do), but they at least knew the what (if not the how). :shrug:

Trust me - Saint Aquinas, Saint Augustine, and a host of other Saints; even our current Pope Benedict XVI are much smarter and learned in philosophy and theology than both of us put together.

Jesus is a divine Person. He existed from all eternity with the other three Persons of the Most Holy Trinity. He is the same God as the Father and the Holy Spirit. In the fullness of time Jesus assumed a human nature. His human and divine natures are hypostatically united, without conmingling or confusion.

Athanasian Creed

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
and shall give account of their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

This is the non-Catholic section for a reason. I do not recall Jesus teaching that only Catholics will be given salvation.

The Word is not confined by men and their ideas, their politics, their ‘rules’, their organization. All are given equal power to come to The Word on their own and receive it.

I have never denied the divinity of Jesus. But I do not agree with the claim that Jesus is God, simply because Jesus himself while clearly claiming his divinity and his purpose, also gave the power and the glory to God, which was not him.

That more than 3 posts have been cut and paste from the ‘thoughts’ of ‘past men and their understanding’ with accusations of ‘heresy’ and claims that I deny the divinity of Jesus only shows human beings who have not learned to have their own knowing, their own receiving of Gods Word and are dependent upon ‘the intelligence’ of men who are long gone and are not here to participate in the dialogue, and whose ideas have been dogmatically passed on to be accepted without searching and seeking of the individual on their own.

I thank God I was not raised in a religious home, time and time and time again, for I was encouraged to find my own path to God and that path was clearly Jesus, in a pure form that ‘religious’ sort seem to loose out on completely by a lack of confidence in their own ability to know Jesus, to walk with Jesus and to discern what He actually taught on for them self.

But if you know that Jesus is the way, the truth, the life and that God is perfect love and keep the Word that Jesus gave in spirit, this is the foundation of truth that will never lead you far from God.

I just find it very sad that people do not use their own words, thoughts, feelings to discuss the points I have made but cut and paste the words and thoughts and conclusions of people who are long gone off the planet who have done their thinking for them.

I read through this post and did not see where anyone said that only Catholics will be given salvation?

So you’re espousing private interpretation? Then who has the authority to say another’s interpretation is wrong?

Contradictory statement. “I have not denied the divinity of Jesus. But I do not agree with the claim that Jesus is God…”

Old arguments produce cut and paste responses… No one has accused you of heresy. We have however shown you those who were heretical for your consideration.

Because your truth is superior truth to anyone else’s understanding of truth?

We find it sad that people will privately interpret scriptures with such a danger plainly told in scriptures.

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

Also, it’s sad and ironic for someone to preach an “idea” with no scriptural support…

By the way, what was the purpose of starting two threads with the same subject?

You don’t actually expect Catholics to ignore what we believe just because of where we are, now do you?

catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp
ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT

<in case you haven’t noticed yet, I find it a lot easier and less time consuming to just link to the information than type it out all the time. ;)>

Also, you need to get out of the erroneous idea that the only place where the teach of Christ is to be found is in the printed words of Scripture. Indeed, Scripture is an invaluable testimony of the Gospel, but it isn’t the only way that Christ’s teaching comes to us. Nowhere does the Bible say that it is the only source for such teaching. Indeed, it explicitly states otherwise: (John 21: 25; 2 Thess. 2:15; 2 John 1:12; 3 John 1:13-14, etc.)

You can’t receive without a sender. Therefore, you can’t do it “on your own”. Faith comes by hearing. This is meant in a liturgical setting (i.e., Mass). A good book on this is Letter and Spirit by Dr. Scott Hahn.

Jesus is divine but not God? Does anyone else see a contradiction here?

God’s Name given to Moses: I AM (Ex. 3:14)
Jesus calls Himself: I AM (John 8:58 and elsewhere)

Jesus states He and the Father are one and the same (John 10:30 and elsewhere)

The Apostle’s acknowledge Jesus as God (John 20:28 and elsewhere)

We could go on and on.
catholic.com/library/Divinity_of_Christ.asp
scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html

Have you ever heard the phrase “why reinvent the wheel?”

You aren’t the first to come here denying that Jesus is God. You probably won’t be the last. Why should I come up with original material every time when these arguments have been soundly defeated by the Church Fathers already. Trust me, I know the theology and I know what Scripture and the Church Fathers and countless other Saints have had to say. But, sadly, I lack the time to present the same material in new ways or in variations on a theme for every poster who comes here thinking they’ll “enlighten us poor ignorant Catholics who can’t think for ourselves”. (yeah, we’ve seen it all before – take the time to do a quick search).

You’ve taken many words to say nothing more than the old heresy of Arius.

It was wrong in 325 and it’s still wrong today.

How can Jesus be both divine and not divine?

By Jesus own admission, he was made divine by being **given **his divinity by God, the Father. Why would God have to make himself divine?

Question: Is God Jesus? For if Jesus is God, then God is Jesus.

A divine human being is still not fully God, he is a human being set apart for a divine purpose, mission and is the expression only of Gods divine will, is able to perform God’s divine acts and is given divine authority to act on God’s behalf on earth as an intermediary between God and humanity.

In all of that we see that God is the appointer, the designator, the source and Jesus is the receiver, the expression and the perfect truth.

Jesus states He and the Father are one** and the same** (John 10:30 and elsewhere

You added the words “and the same”. But that aside, It is true, Jesus was ONE with the Father and we are also told that we are to be ONE with Jesus. Does that make us God?

Jesus said: I am in the Father and the Father is in me as you are in me.

He was teaching about the reality of spirit, in which there is no separateness, but this was not perceived by humans in the flesh until he taught it.

We are ALL One with God and through the Holy Spirit, we can all be One in God’s purpose and have eternal peace on earth.

Does that make us God?

Joh 20:28 Thomas answered and said to him: My Lord and my God.

When St. Thomas made the statement above, why didn’t Christ correct him?

Joh 20:29 Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen and have believed.

St. Thomas called Him, my Lord and my God. Christ said, “Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen and have believed.”

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead corporeally.

Act 20:28 Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Tit 2:13 Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

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