Jesus...just a myth, legend


#1

Greetings:

Please review parts of an exchange between myself and another. Please provide, if you will, a better way to have responded.

Thanks in advance for any guidance and advice.

May His peace find you…

I’ve read the Bible (old and new) and the Koran (bet I beat you there) as well as studying several eastern religions.
There is NO proof at ALL that Jesus ever existed perhaps YOU’D like to look at truth not the opinions of the uninformed
Beleive whatever you like I couldn’t give a friggin toss but don’t tell me the Catholic Church is anything other than a political organisation it has ALWAYS sheltered corrupt individuals and existed purely for the furtherment of Catholic power. Jesus never said anything about the Pope having a line to God that the lowliest person didn’t also have.
And unless you have proof don’t tell me you KNOW Jesus existed (I beleive he didn’t and was simply an amalgam of several man god figures - that whole easter thing gives the game away as far as I’m concerned) but atleast I’m not blind enough to claim I KNOW that.

I’ve a question then…following your logic. Why just not believe in the Gospels, why should you believe in any history that occurred before you were born and able to personally verify it? Was Mohammad a real person? George Washington? Prove it.
Remember my friend, the each of the four Gospels were written by a different apostle of Jesus and at different times and places, yet describe many of the same events in detail. They were eyewitnesses of these events.
Our Father did not send us a myth or legend to open up again for us, heaven.


#2

sounds New Age to me… if you can’t prove it… if you can’t put your fingers in the nail holes in his hands, if you can’t place your hand in his side… well, then he cannot exist…right? Blessed are those who have not seen but believe…

for those that believe no explanation is necessary, for those that don’t believe, there is no explanation.
Good luck…


#3

Read this: Refuting the myth that Jesus never existed

Funny and informative. Truly amazing how so-called freethinkers will abandon reason.

Scott


#4

I don’t know of any serious scholars who doubt that Jesus lived.

Here are some reference outside the Church.

Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources


#5

Actually I posted for ages on a Religious Debate board where most of the atheists and agnostics were of this opinion (one had this “revelation” and shared it with everyone) and basically, we have a few trains of thought – the only person to actually write about Jesus, when he was alive who wasn’t an apostle/included in the Bible was Josephus – and the text that Josephus wrote was really obviously altered by monks in the middle ages –

On that there are two theories, the atheists contend that Jesus was never written about by Josephus because he never existed and the Christians contend that yes he was written about but the text was changed to be more flattering of him –

They will believe what they want to believe – there is plenty of proof that Jesus’ contemporaries lived, the high priests, Pilate, Herod and so on – there is even physical proof of John the Baptist having existed – but there is no physical proof that 2000 years ago there was a rouge carpenter and a gang of fishermen that started a small movement and in effect changed the world –

It would be nearly impossible to PROVE that any specific person that wasn’t of worldly importance lived 2000 years ago – so we go on eye witness accounts, which is what our Bible is – and that takes faith – for those that have it, it’s a wonder that there are people without it!


#6

When people bring up the fact that the Josephus work was altered, point them to the ancient Arabic version that does not contain the questionable phrases. In the Arabic version it removes all definate statements about Jesus being the Messiah, and all reverence that Josephus apparently gives in the European version is absent. It reads like a blunt, simplistic historical account, but most importantly verifies the existance of Jesus and His disciples!


#7

[quote=BenRosa]Greetings:

Please review parts of an exchange between myself and another. Please provide, if you will, a better way to have responded.

Thanks in advance for any guidance and advice.

May His peace find you…

I’ve read the Bible (old and new) and the Koran (bet I beat you there) as well as studying several eastern religions.
There is NO proof at ALL that Jesus ever existed perhaps YOU’D like to look at truth not the opinions of the uninformed
Beleive whatever you like I couldn’t give a friggin toss but don’t tell me the Catholic Church is anything other than a political organisation it has ALWAYS sheltered corrupt individuals and existed purely for the furtherment of Catholic power. Jesus never said anything about the Pope having a line to God that the lowliest person didn’t also have.
And unless you have proof don’t tell me you KNOW Jesus existed (I beleive he didn’t and was simply an amalgam of several man god figures - that whole easter thing gives the game away as far as I’m concerned) but atleast I’m not blind enough to claim I KNOW that.

I’ve a question then…following your logic. Why just not believe in the Gospels, why should you believe in any history that occurred before you were born and able to personally verify it? Was Mohammad a real person? George Washington? Prove it.
Remember my friend, the each of the four Gospels were written by a different apostle of Jesus and at different times and places, yet describe many of the same events in detail. They were eyewitnesses of these events.
Our Father did not send us a myth or legend to open up again for us, heaven.

[/quote]

Please tell me your doubting that jesus even ever lived??


#8

[quote=BenRosa]Greetings:

Please review parts of an exchange between myself and another. Please provide, if you will, a better way to have responded.

Thanks in advance for any guidance and advice.

May His peace find you…

I’ve read the Bible (old and new) and the Koran (bet I beat you there) as well as studying several eastern religions.
There is NO proof at ALL that Jesus ever existed perhaps YOU’D like to look at truth not the opinions of the uninformed

[/quote]

Right here you know he is full of it. He is a liar from the first sentence. This is a common intro anti-Christian attack line, it attempts to scare the other person. He doenst know who he is or where he is going in life if he starts off a conversation/attack like that, so to take any advice from him would be bad. Anyway as some have said already this is a very common line used especially by so called “scholars” to attack Christ.

I dont really know how to respond in such a way that would convince him of anything, he wont listen. He has no god so he does what he wants, also this is really the bigger problem than what he just put out.


#9

[quote=Naphali]Actually I posted for ages on a Religious Debate board where most of the atheists and agnostics…!
[/quote]

I’ve been over in the bowels of Democratic Underground (with one other Catholic poster) trying to put down the many heresies being tossed-around overthere as fact (and defending our new pope).

It’s been quite an amazing experience…I never knew just how many lost souls are out there, wallowing in lies, fear, and hate…they do need our prayers badly.

Thanks for all the great responses.

My His peace find you all…


#10

Try to find “Evidence That Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell. (Available in Christian bookstores.) Mr McDowell is one of the most prominant (protestant) apologists in the US. He has gone into this very matter at great length, since there is a LOT of evidence for Jesus’ life. Atheists & agnostics keep making this claim, so he has gone to great lengths to collect the evidence.

God bless!!


#11

for someone who never existed, He certainly has changed things… myself included… here in 2005 AD…


#12

[quote=Zooey]Try to find “Evidence That Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell. (Available in Christian bookstores.) Mr McDowell is one of the most prominant (protestant) apologists in the US. He has gone into this very matter at great length, since there is a LOT of evidence for Jesus’ life. Atheists & agnostics keep making this claim, so he has gone to great lengths to collect the evidence.

God bless!!
[/quote]

Good point, but I believe he is Canadian.


#13

[quote=BenRosa]Greetings:

And unless you have proof don't tell me you KNOW Jesus existed (I beleive he didn't and was simply an amalgam of several man god figures - that whole easter thing gives the game away as far as I'm concerned) but atleast I'm not blind enough to claim I KNOW that.

[/quote]

You want proof? Proof doesn’t exist outside of mathematics. Even in science, nothing is ever completely proven. The best we can do is say that the likelihood of something being wrong is incredibly small. Proof? Prove to me that you exist. All I have are a couple of e-mails that could have come from anywhere. Until you can prove to me that you exist I see no reason to try to prove to you that Jesus existed.

  • Liberian

#14

Nice…:smiley: but I think this person is going to believe what they want…no matter. Remember him in your prayers. Thanks.

there is historic evidence pointing to George Washington’s existence -there isn’t of Jesus - the gospels don’t all describe things in the same way though do they.

I really couldn’t give a stuff what you beleive but don’t expect me top start believing ni God anytime soon - it aint gonna happen

Don’t wish that for yourself, Djinn. You sound like a well-read individual, looking for answers, truth. Be open to the possibility…

BTW…here’s some non-biblical evidence just in case you have a change of heart.

Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources

May His peace find you…

And unless you’re willing to be open to the possibility that there IS no God and your actions only have consequences in THIS world then please stop with the God bothering, After 30 years it’s unlikely I’ll turn into a beleiver but if I do it WONT be based on guff like that contained in your link
When I see heresies against Catholicism posted by you or anyone else on these forums, I’ll not sit idle by and let it pass as fact. As a believer, I’m obligated to correct. If in explaining and providing sources for my beliefs, it comes across as evangelizing (whoa, it’s that word), then so be it. I’ve every right to convey my thoughts…others reading may acutally be interested in other points of view.


#15

Others have mentioned this book on other threads, but this is another good topic in which to recommend:

The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel.

I can’t recommend it highly enough. He covers the eyewitness evidence, the documentary evidence, the corroborating evidence, the scientific evidence, and the evidences of appearances in regards to the life and death of Jesus.

A great book!


#16

[quote=buffalo]I don’t know of any serious scholars who doubt that Jesus lived.

Here are some reference outside the Church.

Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources
[/quote]

Thank you for this link. I’m a Jew who has started looking into the Catholic Church, and I’m struggling with this very issue. (Was Jesus real or fictional?) I’ve been looking for some sources outside Christianity that might verify his existence.


#17

[quote=infoguy]…

Others have mentioned this book on other threads, but this is another good topic in which to recommend:

The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel.

I can’t recommend it highly enough. He covers the eyewitness evidence, the documentary evidence, the corroborating evidence, the scientific evidence, and the evidences of appearances in regards to the life and death of Jesus.

A great book!


[/quote]

Thanks. I’m going to try to find this book.


#18

I also heard that there is no historical evidence for the existance of Jesus, just as there is no historical evidence for the existance of the Greek poet Homer, yet the Iliad and the Odyssey is attributed to this non-existant man.

In another example: Socrates wrote nothing down because he did not want to develop a following, so everything we know about Socrates is from the writings of his student, Plato.

Similarly, historians have noted that Jesus also wrote nothing down, and everything we know about the Lord stems from the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Yet while the existance of Socrates is not questioned based on the writings of a single student, then why should the existance of Jesus be brought into question based on the writings of four students?

If the philosophy or existance of Socrates is not questioned outside of a single source (his student Plato), then the teachings or existance of Jesus outside of four sources (his students Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) should likewise, out of logical consistancy, not be doubted either.

So should Homer and Socrates be dismissed as just myth and legend? If not, then neither should Jesus! Are the Dialogues of Plato accused of *begging the question *regarding the existance of Plato? If not, neither should the Gospels regarding the existance of Jesus.

Christians have well placed faith in the Gospels and the divinity of Jesus, more than the philosophers have in the Dialogues of Plato, and the validity of Socrates.


#19

Just to close-out my other thread on DU…(hope this didn’t bore everyone, I learned from it).

what have I posted that is not factual??

please do tell??

Of course you have every right to your own views although if you call me a liar I will take you up on that and ask how exactly?

You have every right to base your beliefs on propaganda long debunked but I also have every right to to point out the FACT that the link you posted was worthless.

Djinn…I’m not going to follow you around in circles as to whether Jesus really existed or not, but you have helped me to finally figure-out, this atheism gig that is so prevalent in our world today.

If a person denies the existence of God, then they can also deny His natural laws. In this vacuum, the individual becomes “God” and makes-up his or her own laws according to their desires. A pretty convenient arrangement…the individual determines what is good and what is evil.

Still, I’m thinking any reasonable person must have to continually suppress that nagging suspicion that maybe they are wrong.

Anyway…good luck my friend and I’ll still be pulling for ya (even if you do think I’m wasting my time).

It’s been real.


#20

[quote=Naphali]Actually I posted for ages on a Religious Debate board where most of the atheists and agnostics were of this opinion (one had this “revelation” and shared it with everyone) and basically, we have a few trains of thought – the only person to actually write about Jesus, when he was alive who wasn’t an apostle/included in the Bible was Josephus – and the text that Josephus wrote was really obviously altered by monks in the middle ages –

On that there are two theories, the atheists contend that Jesus was never written about by Josephus because he never existed and the Christians contend that yes he was written about but the text was changed to be more flattering of him –

They will believe what they want to believe – there is plenty of proof that Jesus’ contemporaries lived, the high priests, Pilate, Herod and so on – there is even physical proof of John the Baptist having existed – but there is no physical proof that 2000 years ago there was a rouge carpenter and a gang of fishermen that started a small movement and in effect changed the world –

It would be nearly impossible to PROVE that any specific person that wasn’t of worldly importance lived 2000 years ago – so we go on eye witness accounts, which is what our Bible is – and that takes faith – for those that have it, it’s a wonder that there are people without it!
[/quote]

There are those who deny the existence of Moses and David. If anyone sets up the standard that what is contained in the Bible must be measured by what is written in other sources, he should concede that little that was written down during Roman times has survived the passage of time. What has survived are largely those works that Christian and Muslim scholars found interesting enough to copy. Even things such as the Dialogues of Aristotle have vanished. Except for the few things that have been unearthed by archaelogists, that is about all there is.

Regarding historiography, it it amazing what is not there. Years ago I read of an American historian who ought to imitate the English historian Napier, who examined the Parliamernts of the time of Goerge III by looking at the biographies of the members of Parliament and thereby determined the thinking of those Parliaments about the great issues of the day. The American was going to try the same technique on the Radical Republicans of Lincoln’s time. To his surprise, there was almost nothing in writing by or about most of these men. About a surprising number we knowlittle more than what was inscribed ion their tombstones. And of course about the great Lincoln, we know almost everything he did as president, or at leaset we can construct most of what he did during each day from the time he left Springfield. But for the events of his life before that time we must rely on legend and myth.


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