Jesus, Mary, & Genesis 3:15 . .


#1

Okay, I'm sure this is no big deal, trivial at best, but I am
boggled about who the "seed*/offspring of the woman"* is.And I will put enmity between thee and
the woman, and between thy seed and
her seed; 'it' shall bruise thy head, and
thou shalt bruise his heel.
- KJV Genesis 3:15INDENT
[/INDENT]This verse, is often associated with Mary, as this "seed" is of the "woman" (Eve), and
though the KJV uses the pronoun "it", FOUR notable men in history have translated/–
–/interpreted the pronoun as "SHE":- Titus Flavius Josephus – 1st Cent
- Philo Judaeus –––––––– 1st Cent
- Saint Jerome –––––––––- 5th Cent
- Moses Maimonides ––– 12th Cent[INDENT]_ Around the time of Jesus.
[/INDENT]The Catholic *connection between Mary and Genesis 3:15 makes absolute sense
to me, UNTIL of course I find & read in Catholic approved translations of the Bible:I will put enmity between you and
the woman, and between your off-
spring and hers; *
'He' *will strike at
your head, while you strike at *
his **
heel.
- NAB

I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers; 'he' *will
strike your head, and you will strike *
his **heel.
- NRSVCE
Now I can easily interpret, I suppose, that clearly the verse contains multiple Divinely
intended meanings, talking about both Jesus AND Mary. Mary because the "seed of
the woman" sounds more like a female character, Jesus because of the strike/bruise
**his
heel phrase, but now I'm all mixed up.

Can anybody clear this up for me?


#2

Just my quick thoughts,

If we look at Rev. 12 we see the woman. She is interpreted as faithfull Israel, who became the Church...then Satan made war with her offspring (all those who keep the commanments of God and bear testimony of Jesus)

Mary is both a faithfull Jewish girl and the Mother of Christianity. Jesus is the life of this Church. He has won the merit of our victory.

PS...I believe it was a mistake by Jerome to say "she" in verse 15b

He is Jesus, her seed. The Messiah who overcame the world and death.


#3

God is referring to humans and Mary in the first part, amd then Jesus in the second part. He (Jesus) will strike at your (the devil's) head.....


#4

[quote="Judas_Thaddeus, post:1, topic:342537"]
Okay, I'm sure this is no big deal, trivial at best, but I am
boggled about who the "seed*/offspring of the woman"* is.And I will put enmity between thee and
the woman, and between thy seed and
her seed; 'it' shall bruise thy head, and
thou shalt bruise his heel.
- KJV Genesis 3:15INDENT
[/INDENT]This verse, is often associated with Mary, as this "seed" is of the "woman" (Eve), and
though the KJV uses the pronoun "it", FOUR notable men in history have translated/–
–/interpreted the pronoun as "SHE":- Titus Flavius Josephus – 1st Cent
- Philo Judaeus –––––––– 1st Cent
- Saint Jerome –––––––––- 5th Cent
- Moses Maimonides ––– 12th Cent[INDENT]_ Around the time of Jesus.
[/INDENT]The Catholic *connection between Mary and Genesis 3:15 makes absolute sense
to me, UNTIL of course I find & read in Catholic approved translations of the Bible:I will put enmity between you and
the woman, and between your off-
spring and hers; *
'He' *will strike at
your head, while you strike at *
his **
heel.
- NAB

I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers; 'he' *will
strike your head, and you will strike *
*his
* heel.
- NRSVCE
Now I can easily interpret, I suppose, that clearly the verse contains multiple Divinely
intended meanings, talking about both Jesus AND Mary. Mary because the "seed of
the woman" sounds more like a female character, Jesus because of the strike/bruise
his heel phrase, but now I'm all mixed up.

Can anybody clear this up for me?

[/quote]

All Greek manuscripts say 'he.' Hebrew has an ambiguous noun, but the verb requires either 'he' or 'it.'

Jerome's is the only manuscript tradition that says she and the NAB and the NRSVCE don't translate from the Vulgate.

Jerome got that from another manuscript tradition common to Josephus (and it's only in Rufinus's latin translation that I can find), Philo appeals to vague Greek parallelism in the grammar, not strict word choice, and well...Moses Maimonides I have no explanation.


#5

The Hebrew is ambiguous. It can be translated either way. St. Jerome chose “she,” and that has been the traditional interpretation over the centuries, though in recent times “he” has come into vogue. Both are acceptable translations.


#6

[quote="Ad_Orientem, post:5, topic:342537"]
The Hebrew is ambiguous. It can be translated either way. St. Jerome chose "she," and that has been the traditional interpretation over the centuries, though in recent times "he" has come into vogue. Both are acceptable translations.

[/quote]

The Hebrew can't be quoted as 'she.' The verb is a Qal-imperfect second person masculine singular with a third-person masculine singular object.


#7

[quote="Judas_Thaddeus, post:1, topic:342537"]
Okay, I'm sure this is no big deal, trivial at best, but I am
boggled about who the "seed*/offspring of the woman"* is.And I will put enmity between thee and
the woman, and between thy seed and
her seed; 'it' shall bruise thy head, and
thou shalt bruise his heel.
- KJV Genesis 3:15INDENT
[/INDENT]This verse, is often associated with Mary, as this "seed" is of the "woman" (Eve), and
though the KJV uses the pronoun "it", FOUR notable men in history have translated/–
–/interpreted the pronoun as "SHE":- Titus Flavius Josephus – 1st Cent
- Philo Judaeus –––––––– 1st Cent
- Saint Jerome –––––––––- 5th Cent
- Moses Maimonides ––– 12th Cent[INDENT]_ Around the time of Jesus.
[/INDENT]The Catholic *connection between Mary and Genesis 3:15 makes absolute sense
to me, UNTIL of course I find & read in Catholic approved translations of the Bible:I will put enmity between you and
the woman, and between your off-
spring and hers; *
'He' *will strike at
your head, while you strike at *
his **
heel.
- NAB

I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers; 'he' *will
strike your head, and you will strike *
*his
* heel.
- NRSVCE
Now I can easily interpret, I suppose, that clearly the verse contains multiple Divinely
intended meanings, talking about both Jesus AND Mary. Mary because the "seed of
the woman" sounds more like a female character, Jesus because of the strike/bruise
his heel phrase, but now I'm all mixed up.

Can anybody clear this up for me?

[/quote]

This should clear a lot of things up for you, I hope. :thumbsup:

taylormarshall.com/2010/12/who-crushes-satans-head-in-genesis-315.html


#8

[quote="capablanca911, post:4, topic:342537"]
All Greek manuscripts say 'he.' Hebrew has an ambiguous noun, but the verb requires either 'he' or 'it.'

snip

[/quote]

[quote="capablanca911, post:6, topic:342537"]
The Hebrew can't be quoted as 'she.' The verb is a Qal-imperfect second person masculine singular with a third-person masculine singular object.

[/quote]

Capablanca is correct.


#9

Without starting another thread just for this, I have a question that has been bugging me since I began "lurking" here over a year ago, and especially since I began posting and reading multiple posts.

Just what is "Tiber Swim Team?" Sounds like maybe Baptism for Converts in an allegorical sense, but just what does the term mean???? Please? It's driving me slightly bananas not knowing what you are referring to! :confused:


#10

[quote="judynurse, post:9, topic:342537"]
Without starting another thread just for this, I have a question that has been bugging me since I began "lurking" here over a year ago, and especially since I began posting and reading multiple posts.

Just what is "Tiber Swim Team?" Sounds like maybe Baptism for Converts in an allegorical sense, but just what does the term mean???? Please? It's driving me slightly bananas not knowing what you are referring to! :confused:

[/quote]

It's somewhat of a joke. When somebody converts to Catholicism, it is said that they have "swam the Tiber". The Tiber river is the river running through Rome, Italy. So when somebody says "Tiber Swim team of 98", that means that they were in the class of converts to the Church in 1998.


#11

Thank you for your answer! I suppose I should say I'm "Tiber Swim Team of 1949", although I had grown up thinking there was just ONE faith--- I thought there were different services (a child of 4 or 5 doesn't really understand the service or Mass very well!)-- because the buildings were different buildings, just as my house looked different inside than other people's houses! Was surprised when I was about 8 to find out that the BELIEFS were different! I thought everyone prayed the Rosary and received Our Lord in Communion and went to Confession. Just couldn't find the Confessional box at my Protestant Grandma's Church -- I thought they hid it from the kids!! Ha - Ha!! However, I was aware of where the Tiber is, have known that since at least Jr. High, if not sooner. Thanks for answering my question on a thread about a different subject! This has bugged me for some time -- thought those who posted that on their answers had all been to Rome and actually swam the Tiber (which is probably pretty yukky now!!)

:D:D

:thumbsup:

Tiber Swim Team 1949!!!


#12

True in the Masoretic text. Not necessarily so in the (no longer extant) more ancient texts that St. Jerome used.


#13

What does the verb indicate in the ancient Ashkenaizic? (don't know the spelling in English)-- (The ancient Hebrew which was used to write the Scriptures) and which was the common language of ancient Israel in the time of Moses or Isaiah?

I learned to read the Torah in the Ancient Hebrew at a Synagogue, which had a class for those who were interested, so I know there are copies in that version still available. Or was that form of Hebrew newer than the original?


#14

Also note: I understand that the Jews of the Diaspora in Europe used this same Ashkenaizic in their Torah & Talmud and other writings, whereas those in the area near Spain used a form of Hebrew Scriptures called Sephardic, which is what is now spoken in Israel today. Probably because so many Spanish Jews immigrated to the Holy Land in 1492, when they were expelled from Spain, and those descendants were still there when the Jews came from Europe and Russia pre & post WWII. The Sephardic was still in use in Palestine when they arrived from Europe, though not (probably) as a daily language,. but in prayer, synagogue, etc... Did the Ashkenaizic come from Europe rather than a more ancient source?:shrug:


#15

I'd like to know, too.


#16

Perhaps we can get an answer from those more educated in Hebrew -- perhaps Meltzerboy, who is Jewish would be a good source to answer this.:)


#17

[quote="judynurse, post:16, topic:342537"]
Perhaps we can get an answer from those more educated in Hebrew -- perhaps Meltzerboy, who is Jewish would be a good source to answer this.:)

[/quote]

The correct answer from the Hebrew has already been given, in posts #4 and #6.


#18

[quote="judynurse, post:16, topic:342537"]
Perhaps we can get an answer from those more educated in Hebrew -- perhaps Meltzerboy, who is Jewish would be a good source to answer this.:)

[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not, Jews today go be the Masoretic texts, reli-
ability is questionable. I did list three Jewish Scholars though:
- Titus Flavius Josephus – 1st Cent
- Philo Judaeus –––––––– *1st Cent
*
- Saint Jerome –––––––––- 5th Cent
** - Moses Maimonides ––– 12th Cent**
[INDENT]_ Around the time of Jesus.[/INDENT]


#19

to Judas Thaddeus:

I live in a town of less than 2,000 people. Our Public Library has (I think) 2 or 3 books related to Catholicism, about 20 on various Protestant beliefs, and NONE on Jewish beliefs, (except a half dozen copies of the Bible (KJV), and about 5 on the Holocaust, including about 3 copies of the "Diary of Anne Frank") and certainly none related to Hebrew languages! I read the one Roman/Jewish Historian (Josephus) by asking the Library to borrow it from the Library of Congress for me, which I was able to renew only once, so I had it less than a month, and read it twice in that month. Later, I got it again the same way, and did the same thing. Our Parish Library has books on Saints, basic Catholicism, and writings and encyclicals of the Popes. The entire Parish Library is about 1/3 the size of my living room! The only other historical Jewish books I've read, I borrowed from a Jewish Synagogue in the 1950's!

Can you give me a link to Hebrew development or when and where the language changed, not too advanced, but understandable to a layperson. I am NOT a theologian!

Thank You!:)


#20

[quote="judynurse, post:19, topic:342537"]
snip

Can you give me a link to Hebrew development or when and where the language changed, not too advanced, but understandable to a layperson. I am NOT a theologian!

Thank You!:)

[/quote]

Here is the relevant verse from the Hebrew interlinear. Bear in mind that Hebrew words read from right to left, and the English in the interlinear translation necessarily also reads from right to left.

In the phrase "It shall-bruise thy-head," the Hebrew word above "it" is the pronoun normally translated as "he/it", spelled he-vav-aleph. The antecedent for the pronoun is the Hebrew word above "her-seed," and in the string of letters below the word, the letters "ms" identify it as a masculine singular noun, so the masculine he-vav-aleph agrees grammatically with its antecedent, as all good pronouns are supposed to do.

Furthermore, verbs in Semitic languages are also tagged for the gender of their subjects. My own expertise is in Arabic, not Hebrew, but there is are surprising similarities; the two languages are closer to being sisters than cousins (like English and German).

The relevant verb here is "shall-bruise," and it begins with a yod. This is a prefix that definitely proves that the subject of the verb is grammatically masculine, specifically, the he-vav-aleph that precedes it, and that refers back to "her-seed." If the subject were feminine, the first letter of the verb would have to be a tav. (Coincidentally, the first letter of "thou shalt-bruise" is also a tav, but that is, like I said, a coincidence.)

The phrase can be translated either as "it shall-bruise," thinking of "her-seed" as a thing, or as "he shall-bruise," following the reference to its prophetic conclusion, that "her-seed" will be Jesus Christ.

I hope this clarifies the issue.


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