Jesus of Nazareth was not a Christian!

Jesus of Nazareth was a radical Jew! He was not by any stretch of the imagination a supporter of the religious mainstream, being described as a Samaritan by the Pharisees, and it is true to say that he taught that salvation was not predicated upon subscribing to the mainstream religious consensus determined by the Jews.

The Deuteronomist redactors at the time of Josiah’s great reform in the seventh century B.C.E., who compiled the Jewish Scriptures, as we know them today, insisted that true worship should be limited to ‘the place which Yahweh will choose’. This is generally taken as a code word for Jerusalem and the ‘The Jews’, who worshipped there.

Jesus of Nazareth was rejected by the Jewish religious elite, comprised of several dominant factions, and reckoned themselves to be the elect of God. Even so, a small group of Jews who represented the poor and the excluded, regarded as being accursed and sinners, were lead by the Apostles Peter, James and John and formed a movement that taught that this Jesus was Messiah/Christ and following his brutal execution at the hands of Roman authorities, was raised from the dead by God and was alive and commanding his followers. The New Testament also asserts that a prominent Pharisee, Paul, who was determined to destroy this movement, was called by the resurrected Christ to preach ‘The gospel’ to the Gentiles who would find full access to the blessings, through their adoption into the family of Israel.

Christians today claim that their churches are the furtherance and continuance of this movement, but we know that the preponderance of sectarianism and the mutual excommunication of each other negates this assertion.

Whatever happened to the movement lead by the Apostles of Jesus Christ?
Whilst the mainstream Christian churches are entitled to reject the radical claims of some who claim a restoration of the nascent church described above, it is clear that Jesus of Nazareth could NOT be styled a ‘Christian’ by the meaning of that term as it is understood today.
Mormons are in good company!

Now this is what we like to see. A person with no agenda… :wink:

[quote=Asa Ben Judah]Jesus of Nazareth was a radical Jew! He was not by any stretch of the imagination a supporter of the religious mainstream,
[/quote]

LOL! You don’t say? Nice cut & paste job, but I don’t see what this passage is even saying apart from that all churches apart from Mormons are wrong?

If mutual excommunication negates apostolic succession, then the Mormons are as guilty as any other denomination as each promotes it’s doctrine as correct.

Uhhh…What’s your point? Nice rant nonetheless.

My point?

Might is not Right, and the bigger they come the greater the fall.

[quote=OhioBob]Now this is what we like to see. A person with no agenda… :wink:
[/quote]

My agenda is to ascertain the truth, what is yours?

As long as we’ve fallen into things Jewish here, can anyone out there suggest a web site providing online access to english translations of Midrash?

[quote=StratusRose]Uhhh…What’s your point? Nice rant nonetheless.
[/quote]

The Platypus evolved, just as conventional, conservative and conformist Christianity has undergone a continuing process of change from one state or condition to another…

That is the point!

[quote=Asa Ben Judah]My agenda is to ascertain the truth, what is yours?
[/quote]

Well you’ve come to the right place.

However, if you come on here and post a long dissertation with no real points in it then of course we’re going to try to discredit you. Why don’t you go on the main website here and search “mormons” and it’ll give you our interpretation of your religion.

Don’t get me wrong I think it’s great the Mormons live pious lives. No drinking, no swearing, great family ties, and so on. But think about how the religion originated. It’s kinda sketchy. What if I told you that you could join a Church that Jesus Christ himself started?

What?! You’re not making any sense! What I gather from this is that the Catholic Church has changed, and in some cases that is true. But DOCTRINE has never changed, for example our views on the Eucharist has never changed. However, the language in which the mass is said has changed, big deal.

[quote=dominosNbiscuts]As long as we’ve fallen into things Jewish here, can anyone out there suggest a web site providing online access to english translations of Midrash?
[/quote]

Try www.vbm-torah.org/

[quote=Asa Ben Judah]My agenda is to ascertain the truth, what is yours?
[/quote]

At the moment, my agenda is to not waste my time.
Rant on, brother.

:wink:

[quote=StratusRose]What?! You’re not making any sense! What I gather from this is that the Catholic Church has changed, and in some cases that is true. But DOCTRINE has never changed, for example our views on the Eucharist has never changed. However, the language in which the mass is said has changed, big deal.
[/quote]

If the Catholic Church is the church organised by the Apostles then its Christology, soteriology and eschatology has changed big time!
Something to do with making a Jewish religion more acceptable to Pagan notions about God.

You mentioned the Eucharist, where in the New Testament is this doctrine about Transubstantiation?
But hey, I am open to sensible debate.

[quote=OhioBob]At the moment, my agenda is to not waste my time.
Rant on, brother.

:wink:
[/quote]

I am sorry you feel this way but you started the trivialising.

[quote=Asa Ben Judah]If the Catholic Church is the church organised by the Apostles then its Christology, soteriology and eschatology has changed big time!
Something to do with making a Jewish religion more acceptable to Pagan notions about God.

You mentioned the Eucharist, where in the New Testament is this doctrine about Transubstantiation?
But hey, I am open to sensible debate.
[/quote]

How about where Christ says “This is my body.” He didn’t say “This is a symbol of my body.”

[quote=Asa Ben Judah]…You mentioned the Eucharist, where in the New Testament is this doctrine about Transubstantiation?..
[/quote]

Welcome Asa Ben Judah,

From other peoples posts it sounds like you’re a Christian Mormon? I don’t understand what your question was when you started this thread but here is some proof about the Eucharist.

By the way, don’t use a Mormon version of the Bible for my quotes as it is edited to fit their theology (i.e. JST or Mormon KJV). I own several Bibles that the LDS church puts out and it does change words to fit LDS belief.

Jesus is the “Lamb of God” because He becomes/replaces the sacrificial Lamb of OT for our salvation. The Lamb which we must now eat of to become one with Him.

Mk 14:22 "While they were eating, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is my body.” 23 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, and they all drank from it. 24 He said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed for many.”

Mt 26:26-28 "26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.”

Mt 27:51 “And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom…” {The Eucharist is our access to Christ now!}

Mk 14:22-24 "While they were eating, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is my body.” 23 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, and they all drank from it. 24 He said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed for many.”

Lk 22:19-20 "Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.”

Lk 22:19-20 "Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.“
Jn 6:48-58 “I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; 50 this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.” 52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” 53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.””

Some proof only.

Now here are some texts that prove the others true above. If the Eucharist was not His body then why would anyone need to state the following? Why whould you be guilty of His flesh if it were not His flesh?

1 Cor 10:14-22 “Therefore, my beloved, avoid idolatry. 15 I am speaking as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I am saying. 16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf. 18 Look at Israel according to the flesh; are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar? 19 So what am I saying? That meat sacrificed to idols is anything? Or that an idol is anything? 20 No, I mean that what they sacrifice, (they sacrifice) to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to become participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and also the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and of the table of demons. 22 Or are we provoking the Lord to jealous anger? Are we stronger than he?”
{How could St. Paul use the word idolatry unless the Body and Blood of Jesus was actually present at mass in our remembrance of the Lords supper?}

1 Cor 11:20-34 “When you meet in one place, then, it is not to eat the Lord’s supper, 21 for in eating, each one goes ahead with his own supper, and one goes hungry while another gets drunk. 22 Do you not have houses in which you can eat and drink? Or do you show contempt for the church of God and make those who have nothing feel ashamed? What can I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this matter I do not praise you. 23 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, 24 and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. 27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying. 31 If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment; 32 but since we are judged by (the) Lord, we are being disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world. 33 Therefore, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that your meetings may not result in judgment. The other matters I shall set in order when I come.” {Verse 27-29 proves this is the Lords Body. We can not take it unworthily like dogs!}

Just some proof.

You’re right. He is the Christ; the Messiah; the only saviour of the whole world.

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