Jesus or the Roman Catholic Church?


#1

“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12

**The name **referred to in this verse is Jesus, The Lord Jesus Christ.

The “no other name” referred to in this verse is anything other than Jesus including the Roman Catholic Church.

No?


#2

The way you have twisted it…no.


#3

Right, Jesus gave us the Catholic Church, and therefore we are saved in Jesus name through his Church, his sacraments and his grace.


#4

BOTH!:thumbsup:

Here here! It’s necessary to have both. You can’t have a grilled-cheese sandwich without grilled cheese, or else it isn’t a sandwich! The same with Christ and His Church. One without the other, and you’ve got yourself a major problem.

In Pax Christi
Andrew


#5

Jesus and His church are one.

Ephesians 5
31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."

32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about **Christ and the church. **

No choice to make! They (Jesus & His church) are one and the same!


#6

#7

A false dichotomy. It’s like saying, “You’re saved by Jesus, not by the Bible.” These aren’t two different choices, they are united. Yeah, of course we are saved by Jesus. We are saved BY Jesus, THROUGH the Church.

OP, do you think that the Catholic Church teaches that we are saved BY the Catholic Church? That is incorrect. That isn’t what Catholics believe. We believe we are saved BY Jesus THROUGH the Church.


#8

Hi,

When you say through the church–what exatly do you mean by that statement? Could you clarify for me?:thumbsup:


#9

As a Roman Catholic, I don’t believe that I am saved by anyone but Jesus Christ Himself. However, I do believe that Jesus saves through the Church which he established, the Roman Catholic Church.


#10

Right. All this passage does is establish what we already acknowledge as obvious: Jesus is the sole source of our salvation. It doesn’t in any way exclude how he does it. The Church is His chosen instrument of salvation.


#11

Picture a huge fence with a million gates in it of varying size and style. ONE of them is Jesus (a particularly small, unattractive one). The rest lead you to destinations other than to God, although many bear beautiful and ornate signs which indicate that they too will get you to God. Many say that THEY are the only way to God. The true way (Jesus) is not easy, and few will find it.

The job of the Church is not to be a big gate to go through instead of Jesus, like all those others. The Job of the Church is to be a gigantic arrow pointing to the hard-to-find straight gate which is Jesus Christ.

Every single thing we do is ultimately designed to be part of guiding you to that one true way.


#12

I think Gamera means that the Church is the home of the Sacraments – the avenues through which Grace enters our lives. Thus, the Church is the instrument by which we cooperate with Grace to “keep” us saved.

Remember, we Catholics don’t believe in “Once saved, always saved”.

Peace,
Dante


#13

Oh ok thanks.:smiley:

So then how do catholics or what does the CC teach about how NCC can also stay saved? Since we dont receive the sacrements of the CC how does this happen for say someone like me?:thumbsup:


#14

Im not sure what you mean by instrument:confused:


#15

Read what Jesus says to Saul on the road to Damascus and you’ll see that you have created a false dichotomy.


#16

This statement I do not have a problem with at all.:smiley: I just dont limit the churh to the CC.:shrug: But, I do agree with your statement-I just believe the church as being the body of believers . Which would include anyone who has accepted Christ as their Savior.:smiley:

We as believers in Christ have to behave like Christ wants us to so people can see we are different and then start asking questions. That will hopefully lead them to Christ.:smiley: :thumbsup:


#17

God throughout the Bible uses people and matter instrumentally to achieve His will. For instance, why did God tell Moses to stretch out his hand to part the sea? Couldn’t He just do it and say go to the sea and it will be parted for you? And again, when Jesus heals a blind man with spit and mud and tells him to go wash. Why all the rigamarole? Why not just heal him on the spot with no involvement of dirt and the blind man? The answer in part may be to test faith, but also because God wants us to be hands-on involved in His miracles. The Church is the hands-on part of God’s salvation and the passage in question does nothing to overthrow that.


#18

I would like to weigh in and agree that your question, posed as it is, creates a false dichotomy that Scripture does not support. Once again, the old refrain rings out: it’s not ether/or, it’s both/and. To be more specific, it’s Jesus and the Church.

You may have a slew of ideas about what the Church teaches regarding this topic. Some may be correct, but I would bet that much of your notion is based on bias against the Church. Thus, since you have this notion that the Catholic Church can’t possibly be the Church, then you must be poised to make a choice between the Church you reject and the Christ you accept. But the truth of the matter is that, like Saul, if you reject Christ’s Church, you reject Him.

Rather than doing a dance of leading questions and prepared answers, I suggest you read what the Church teaches about salvation as it remains a light to the world and formulate specific questions based on real information rather than faulty notions. Of particular interest would be the document “Lumen Gentium.”

Here’s the link: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

From it you may read the following:

  1. . . .The Church is a sheepfold whose one and indispensable door is Christ.(26) It is a flock of which God Himself foretold He would be the shepherd,(27) and whose sheep, although ruled by human shepherds; are nevertheless continuously led and nourished by Christ Himself, the Good Shepherd and the Prince of the shepherds,(28) who gave His life for the sheep.(29)
  1. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.”(12*) All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)

  1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); . . .Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

#19

I’m sure Scottgun can clarify his meaning perfectly well. In the meantime, here is an example from St. Francis of the meaning of the word “instrument”

Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen.

In all the ways St. Francis prays, we, as individuals, can be made into instruments of God’s grace and thus bring Christ, source of our salvation, to the world.

In the same way, the Church, collectively, through the special instrumentality of the Sacraments is formed, by God, into His instrument towards the salvation of men.

The Sacraments are not fringe benefits or bonus points. They are visible signs of grace. They are effective movements of the Spirit. They are necessary because grace is necessary. Thus, as we are convinced by the Spirit that God touches us through the Sacraments, they become necessary as all fonts of grace are necessary towards salvation.


#20

Great question!

The simple answer is that, to be saved, a NCC should convert to Catholicism. :slight_smile:

The more complex answer is that, although schism and heresy are serious sins, those who are raised in a non-Catholic faith and who earnestly seek Christ are not to be blamed for their background. If, however, they receive and understand the fullness of truth as it exists in the Catholic Church, and then reject it, that’s a different story.

The Church acknowledges, furthermore, that there are elements of truth in many non-Catholic traditions, and that Christ is fully capable of working through those elements to bring NCCs home to him. On top of that, the notion of an “invisible” Church – i.e., that one can become a part of the true Body by virtue of one’s desire to do so – is something to consider.

But beware: this is not to be construed as a dispensation to choose whatever “denomination” feels right. As I said above, rejecting the Truth is not to be taken lightly. Much is expected of those who receive much.

I think it’s worth considering the fact that you were led to this forum to learn more about the Catholic faith, don’t you? :slight_smile:

Peace,
Dante


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