Jesus' teachings weren't always moral - Justify this for me please

I’m just going to copy this straight out but from reading these quotes in the bible, I may even have to take back the fact that i once thought Jesus was at least a great teacher. Unless of course the bible is wrong or I and the person that wrote this essay are misinterpreting the bible.

What Would Jesus Do?

Advocate child abuse and murder amongst many other cruelties.

Christians are always claiming, “he’s the lamb”, “our savior”, “the king of peace”, “the embodiment of love”, amongst the many other names they associate with a loving, merciful nature.  Jesus a nice guy?  Not in my book.  Nor in any other person’s who is capable of compassion and rationality.  Let’s examine who the hell the Jesus character really is.  These verses will show not only is Jesus’ “loving” nature a joke but so are the Christians who worship him.  Jesus’ real mission to come to earth:

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has “come not to send peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34

Jesus says, “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. “The real beauty of this verse is that Jesus demands people truly love him more then they love their own family. I ask you how can we love someone that we can not see or interact with? Love is an emotion pertaining to physical existence not to faithful ideologies, yet God threatens you with Death just because your love for your mother maybe stronger than your love for him. Matthew 10:34

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus. “Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 10:21

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. Matthew 5:17

Jesus advocates murder and death:

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20

Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the winepress of the wrath of God. (The winepress is the actual press that humans shall be put into so that we may be ground up.) Revelations 19:13-15

The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest of us the unchosen will be killed with the sword of Jesus. “An all the fowls were filled with their flesh.” Revelations 19:20-21

Jesus says he is the only way to salvation yet he purposely disillusions us so that we will go to hell:

Jesus explains that the reason he speaks in parables is so that no one will understand him, “lest . . . they . . . should understand . . . and should be converted, and I should heal them.” Matthew 13:10-15

Jesus explains why he speaks in parables to confuse people so they will go to hell. Mark 4:11-12

Jesus advocates child abuse:

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7

Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he’ll give your a big reward. Jesus asks that his followers abandon their children to follow him. To leave your child is abuse, it’s called neglect, pure and simple. Matthew 19:29

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9

A few other things about Jesus:

Jesus says that those who have been less fortunate in this life will have it even worse in the life to come. Mark 4:25

Jesus sends the devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. Clearly Jesus could have simply sent the devils out, yet he chose instead to place them into pigs and kill them. This is called animal abuse. Mark 5:12-13

Jesus kills a fig tree for not bearing figs, even though it was out of season. Jesus must not be as smart as Christians would have us believe, for he was retarded enough to do something this silly. You’d think the son of god (god incarnate) would know that trees don’t bear fruit in dry season. Mark 11:13

Luke 12:47 Jesus okays beating slaves.

These verses are taken completely out of context and woven together to create a warped picture. Frankly, even the way this is presented is biased and offensive and shows a lack of respect or consideration for those in fellowship here. If you actually read the new testatment (which you clearly have not) and then come back and tell us for yourself who you think Jesus is, then we can have a useful dialogue on this.

There is a tremendous amount of spiritual meaning to what Jesus said. He in no way advocated child abuse, etc. that you attribute to him.

The division in families, for example, is a sad situation indeed, but it refers to the fact that some people accept the gospel, but some, even members of their own family, do not. A “sword” so often is used as a representation of the gospel message. It is the gospel which divides even families.

In these forums, the general advice is to limit the topic in a thread, not take the shotgun approach of bringing up too many topics at once. I know, that’s your “point” but still it is better to limit things a bit… The continuity of the successive posts will be much better if the topic is more limited.

If you apply a secular and even overly-literal interpretation of scripture, you will end up far off base.

Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Abbadon

I will provide interpretations, but I get the feeling that the interpretations are not really being seeked, only offense being made. Even Ghandi, who was not a believer, was touched by the teachings of Jesus.

Here are some quick interpretations by the Early Christians of the Church.

Matthew 10:34
The Blessed Theophylact
Harmony is not always a good thing, while separation sometimes is. The sword, then, is the word of faith which severs our bond to our families and relatives when they hinder our piety towards God. For He does not tell us simply to separate ourselves from them, but only when they will not come with us, and especially when they hinder us in our faith.

Matthew 10:21
The Blessed Theophylact
He foretells to them the things that will happen, so that when they occur the disciples will not be dismayed. He also shows them the power of the Gospel that is preached, how it causes men to hold in contempt nature itself, for such is Christianity. He also reveals the inhuman rage of those who will not spare even their closest kin.

Matthew 5:17
The Blessed Theophylact
He was about to introduce new laws, yet He did not want them to think that He was opposed to God. Therefore He says, anticipating the suspicion that many would have, “I have not come to abolish the law, but rather to fulfill it.” How did He fulfill it? First, He did everything which the prophets had foretold concerning Him, which is why the evangelist often says, “So that what was spoken by the prophet might be fulfilled.” He also fulfilled every commandment of the law. “For He did no sin, neither was any guile found in His mouth” (1 Peter 2:22). And He fulfilled and completed the law in yet another way: whatever the law had sketched in outline, Christ fully painted in. The law said, "Do not murder’’; but Christ said, “Neither be angry without a cause.” So too the painter does not destroy the sketch, but rather completes it.

Matthew 11:20
The Blessed Theophylact
After showing that He had done everything that He ought to have done, and they remained unrepentant, then He upbraids them.

Revelations 19:13-15
St. Bede
13 vesture. The vesture of Christ ought to be understood according to the place. Here, accordingly, it appears to indicate the very act of the Passion, so that in the white horse is designated the immaculate birth, in the vesture stained with blood, the innocent death.

The Word. Because the same Who appeared for a time as a man of suffering, “in the beginning was God with God.” He is called the Word, because nothing in His nature was visible, nor corporeal; or because the Father made all things by Him, the perfect knowledge of Whose nature, as he says above, is known to Himself alone, and to the Father. For “the peace of God passeth all understanding;” that is, the peace by which God Himself was reconciled unto Himself, exceeds the wisdom of any creature, whether human or angelic, for “Of his wisdom there is no number.” For when it is said, “And he, to whom the Son will reveal,” That is, the Father and the Son, “knows,” this has respect to the capacity of the creature.

14 armies. That is to say, the Church in white bodies imitated Him. For because of the intensity of its conflict, it rightly receives the name of an army.

linen. This he himself explained above to be “the righteousness of saints;” as it is said by the Psalmist, “Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness.”

15 sword. So also Isaiah says, “And he hath set my mouth as a sharp sword;” and the Apostle, “And the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.”

winepress. It is even so. For now also He treads until He tread without the city.

Revelations 19:20-21
St. Bede
20 both. He appears to signify, that the devil and Antichrist are to be visited with so much greater a punishment than the rest of men and demons, as it is more grievous to be burned alive with flames of brimstone, than to die quickly, and be slain with the stroke of a sword; unless, perhaps, he intends that the divine attention was directed to them first. For “he who does not believe is already judged;” whether thou understand Antichrist to be intended by the false prophet, or heretics, for not one of mortal men sins more obstinately than heretics, who after they have known Christ, deny Him.

21 filled. “If the righteous shall even now rejoice when he seeth the vengeance” upon the wicked, how much more then, when in the presence of the Judge Himself, he will be made one spirit with Him. The birds may also be understood to be evil spirits, who will be satiated from their destruction. Tichonius expounds this supper as follows: "In all time the Church devours the flesh of its enemies, while it is devoured by them. But in the resurrection it will be satiated, as avenged for their carnal work.

Matthew 13:10-15
The Blessed Theophylact
10-12. And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why speakest Thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, It is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have in abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even what he hath. The disciples found great obscurity in the words spoken by Christ, and being solicitous of the common people came to Him and asked the question. And He said, “It is given unto you to know the mysteries,” that is, since you have willingness and zeal to learn, it is given to you. But to those who do not have zeal, it is not given. For it is he that asks who receives. Ask, therefore, He says, and it will be given to you. See here how the Lord told the parable and only the disciples, who asked, received. So we can truly say that to him who has zeal, knowledge is given and in abundance. But from him who does not have zeal and a worthy mind, even that which he imagines he has will be taken away. That is to say, if he has even the slightest spark of good, he extinguishes it if he does not blow on it with the Spirit and spiritual deeds, and kindle it.

  1. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. Take heed. Here the problem is solved of those who say that some are evil by nature, or by God’s intent. For they argue that Christ Himself said, “It is given unto you to know the mysteries, but to the Jews it is not given.” But we say, with God, to those who speak such things, that God makes everyone by nature to understand what is necessary. For God “enlighten-eth every man that cometh into the world” (Jn. 1:9). But it is our own will and inclination that casts us into darkness. This is made clear even here. For Christ says that although they see by nature, that is, they were created by God to understand, they by their own choice do not see. And hearing, that is, by nature created by God to hear and to understand, they by their own choice do not hear, nor do they understand. Tell me, did they not see the miracles of Christ? Yes, they did, but they made themselves blind and condemned Him. So this is the meaning of “seeing they see not.” Then He brings forward the prophet as further witness to His argument.

14-15. ***And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand: and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: for this people’s heart has grown fat, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should turn back, and I should heal them. ***Do you see what the prophecy (Is. 6:9-10) is saying? You do not understand, not because I created your heart fat and dull, but because it has grown fat, although it is obvious that before it was fine and subtle. For something which grows fat was first thin. And when their heart had grown fat, then they closed their eyes. He did not say that God closed their eyes, but they did, of their own choice. They did this, He says, so that they would not turn back and be healed by Me. For they chose evil and went to great lengths to remain unhealed and unrepentant.

Matthew 15:4-7
The Blessed Theophylact
The Pharisees were accusing the disciples of transgressing the commandment of the elders, but Christ shows that the Pharisees were transgressing the law of God (See Ex. 20:12; 21:16). For they were teaching sons to give nothing to their parents but to offer whatever they had to the treasury of the temple. There was a coffer in the temple in which he who so wished could put money, and the contents were distributed to the poor. So the Pharisees first persuaded sons not to give anything to their parents but to offer it instead to the treasury of the temple, and then taught them to say, “O my father, the help that you seek from me is a gift, that is, it is offered to God.” And then the Pharisees and the sons would divide the money among themselves, and the parents were being left uncared for in their old age. The money lenders had the same practice. For if one of them would lend money to someone who proved to be a bad debtor who did not pay back what was owed, then the money lender would say to the ungrateful debtor, “What you owe me is Corban,” that is, a gift offered to God. Then the debtor, as one who was now in debt to God, would pay up although unwillingly. This is what the Pharisees were teaching sons to do.

Matthew 19:29
The Blessed Theophylact
So that no one would think that what was said applied only to the disciples, Christ broadened the promise to include everyone who does likewise. For they will have, instead of family of the flesh, intimacy and brotherhood with God; instead of lands, Paradise; instead of houses of stone, the heavenly Jerusalem; instead of a mother, the venerable mothers in the Church; instead of a father, the priests; instead of a wife, all the faithful women, not in marriage — far from it! — but in affection and spiritual relation and compassionate care for them. The Lord does not bid us simply to separate from our families, but only when they impede our piety. In the same manner, He bids us to despise even our own life and body, but not with the result that we slay ourselves. See how good God is: He not only gives us these good things, but adds to them eternal life. You, then, O reader, hasten to sell your possessions and give to the poor. Possessions are, to the wrathful person, his anger; to the fornicator, his disposition for debauchery; to the resentful person, his remembrance of wrongs. Sell these things and give them to the poor demons who are in want of every good thing. Return the passions to the creators of the passions, and then you will have treasure, which is Christ, in your heaven, that is, in your mind which has been exalted above this world. For he who becomes like the heavenly One has heaven within himself.

Mark 4:25
**Unknown Author (1st Commentary on Mark)*****For whoever has, it will be given to him ***

This means that whoever has faith will have virtue. Whoever has the task of preaching will have the understanding of the mystery. On the other hand, whoever does not have faith will lack virtue. And whoever does not have the task of preaching lacks understanding. Whoever does not understand, has already lost what he heard, as if he had not heard it.

Mark 5:12-13
The Blessed Theophylact
The demons asked this so that they could drown the swine, and thus the owners would be grieved and would not welcome Christ. Christ granted the demons their request in order to show how great is their bitterness towards men, and that if they had the power, and were not prevented as they are by God, they would do worse things to us than they did to the swine. For God protects those possessed by demons so that they do not kill themselves.

**Ishodad of Merv **
So therefore He allowed them to enter into the swine ; first, that no man should be hurt by them ; second, that from these things might be known at the same time the wrath of the demons and their power, for those sought also to kill the swine. Granted that they could hurt men, how much more would they cause those to perish if there was no one to restrain them?

Mark 11:13
St. Bede
Just in the same way as He speaks parables, so also His deeds are parables; therefore He comes hungry to seek fruit off the fig tree, and though He knew the time of figs was not yet, He condemns it to perpetual barrenness, that He might show that the Jewish people could not be saved through the leaves, that is, the words of righteousness which it had, without fruit, that is, good works, but should be cut down and cast into the fire. Hungering therefore, that is, desiring the salvation of mankind, He saw the fig tree, which is, the Jewish people, having leaves, or, the words of the Law and the Prophets, and He sought upon it the fruit of good works, by teaching them, by rebuking them, by working miracles, and He found it not, and therefore condemned it. Do you too, unless you would be condemned by Christ in the judgment, beware of being a barren tree, but rather offer to Christ the fruit of piety which He requires.

Luke 12:47
St. Cyril of Alexandria
Thus the faithful and wise servant prudently giving out in due season the servants’ food, that is, their spiritual meat, will be blessed according to the Savior’s word, in that he will obtain still greater things, and will be thought worthy of the rewards which are due to friends. Hence it follows, Of a truth I say to you, that he will make him ruler over all that he has.

I have no real care as to who jesus was or who he claimed to be. I was just intrested that someone who is stereotyped to be all loving and all moral etc would even say such things…

That is an annoying aspect that i find, I wish god and jesus had just spoken plainly simply and to the point…

Ghandi was a racist who liked to sleep naked with girls and preform enemas in the morning, I would hardly take anything done by him to seriously. Even if he did great things for the Indian people…

I’m more interested in how believers go about interpreting it, how they justify it. Most of the time it seems to me that it is just ignored or brushed over and away… I personally have no concern for such things just understanding how they are so…

I’ll leave the major reading of your reply for tommorow but I’m definately intrested in reading it…

I don’t think you are here to get answers at all but rather provoke and cause offense.

I find this curious, coming from a member of the Bahai faith. Aren’t you all the ones who claim that God’s revelation to humanity changes due to the time and space of the people?

Taken from wikipedia’s entry on “Bahai”:

Religious history is seen to have unfolded through the influence of a series of divinely sent messengers, each of whom established a religion that was suited to the needs of the time. These messengers have included Abraham, Moses, Zoroaster, the Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, Muhammad

and:

Bahá’í notions of progressive religious revelation result in their accepting the validity of most of the world’s religions, whose founders and central figures are seen as Manifestations of God. Religious history is interpreted as a series of dispensations, where each manifestation brings a somewhat broader and more advanced revelation, suited for the time and place in which it was expressed.[6] Specific religious social teachings (e.g. the direction of prayer, or dietary restrictions) may be revoked by a subsequent manifestation so that a more appropriate requirement for the time and place may be established. Conversely, certain general principles (e.g. neighbourliness, or charity) are seen to be universal and consistent.

So…ummm…are you starting your own branch of Bahai? One that rejects Jesus as a Manifestation of God? Or are you claiming that God “tricked” us somehow in Jesus’ teachings? Or maybe you don’t understand what Jesus was teaching?

I’m confused, but I’m leaning toward option no. three.

Abbadon

I’ll leave the major reading of your reply for tommorow but I’m definately intrested in reading it…

Sounds good!

Should be pointed out that this is cut n pasted directly from www.evilbible.com

“I was just interested that someone who is stereotyped to be all loving and all moral etc would even say such things…”

That’s exactly the point. The stereotypical Jesus (in the secular world at least) is one who wouldn’t condemn ANYTHING, who tolerates EVERYTHING, who acts as if harmony is the highest goal of all. Of course those who believe in this Jesus would be shocked, SHOCKED, when confronted with the discussed verses. And about Jesus not talking in plain language, I believe He explained why in the gospels. Go & find out 4 yourselves :slight_smile:

That writer is not using the Bible very intelligently - why are so many objections to it written from a sort of God-free Fundamentalist POV ? One has to wonder what the wriiter would make of Plato. Only when discussing Jesus do people lose all sense of proportion :frowning:

If you want a problematic part of His teaching, I recommend Matthew 18 on forgiveness. Some offences are so serious, because they are particularly damaging to society, that to forgive the offender is, arguably, grossly irresponsible. For an individual to forgive an individual for a wrong committed by the latter is one thing, but a state cannot afford to forgive traitors, terrorists, murderers & those who plot its destruction - it needs to defend the rest of its inhabitants against such evil-doers. If psychopaths are incapable of understanding the gravity of what they have done, should they be forgiven ?

Abbadon:

The reason we say that Jesus is all Loving is simple - It is what He did, While we were enemies of God, he paid the ultimate price for us to be reconciled to God and freed from our sins and from eternal death.

He wasn’t just an ordinary man, and His enemies didn’t just catch Him unawares:

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. ** No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
**
John 10:11-18 ESV**

**The Song of the Suffering Servant
**
Who has believed what he has heard from us?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
*
*
Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

*
*He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.

*By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
*
And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.

*
**Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
*the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
*Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
**by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.

*Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.

Isaiah 53 ESV

There are something like 143 scriptures on the Death and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. Several even describe a Roman Crucifixion in painful detail. If we accept the standard method for dating materials used for almost all of ancient literature, the Gospels of Matthew, Mark Luke and Proto-John all must be dated within 30-33 years of the Death and Resurrection of Jesus (Before the Judean Revolt and the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem).

We must conclude that Jesus was the only man who was born to die. You and every one else here has been born to live. Jesus was born to die, and He was born to die for YOU.

You can say whatever you will, but nothing you say or do will change that fact.

In Christ, Michael

Abbadon:

Sounds to me as if you’ve violated at least 3 of the major tenets of the Bahai Faith - (1) not to make an accusation based on one biased source such as “evilbible”; (2) not to enter a dialog with the express intent of causing offense and only causing offense; and (3) refusing to read the holy books of a religion in order to advance dialog or clear misapprehensions when those have been pointed out and when the reading has been requested.

I had really hoped for better from you. If I had made the same type of accusations about Bahai Faith and its founders you’ve made about Jesus and the Mohatma using the same type of information you have, you’d be rightfully outraged and would have rightfully demanded an apology from me. That hasn’t been done here. All that has been done here is a request that you simply read the actual text of the New Testament. I don’t see why you should consider such a request burdensome or unreasonable.

I’m sure that under NO circumstances would you allow anyone here to treat you as you’ve treated us. Please give us the same courtesy you would demand from us if the shoe were on the other foot.

And, Please, NO MORE accusations or slurs against Mohandas K. Gandhi. They’re simply inappropriate and have no place in civilized discussion. If you want civilized discussion and to learn, we’ll gladly accommodate you.

Peace, Michael

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