Jesus was created by YHWH


#1

This was a statement made by Bible Steve in a separate thread. I did not want to derail the current thread but wanted to dive deeper.

Again, to BibleSteve, Please be aware I am not trying to aggravate any emotions, or cause strife, I am asking to better understand your position, and yes, I would like to respectfully challenge you on this belief, but I do not want it to be done in a spiteful manner.

Though I have several questions, I do not want to play shotgun, so I will start with just these two (as they are related).

  1. Is Jesus Less than God?

and at least for me, directly related…

  1. Is Jesus not part of the Divine nature. In otherwords. Prior to Jesus. It was God and God alone, since you believe Jesus was Created, once he was, did Jesus become Part of Gods divine nature in the same way that Trinitarians feel Jesus is part of God?

With humble respect in Christ


#2

:hmmm:


#3

Jesus can’t have been created by the Lord because he claims to be Yahweh in John 8:58.


#4

The first Chapters of John makes this clear that Jesus was there in the beginning as well as the Book of Revelation.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him not not anything made that was made. In him life, and the life was the light of men.

Further down in verse 14 it reads, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten Son from the Father.

This Word is Jesus Christ.


#5

HI Eisenberg,

The Second Person of the Trinity, who is God from all eternity, took our flesh and became man… the man Jesus. Before that there was no man Jesus. As man, he was born and he had a beginning. As God, he is eternally generated by tĥe Father and has no beginning.

The man Jesus has two natures, divine and human, in one person, and that person is divine. Everything Jesus does can be attributed to God.

Does this post make things clearer for you?

Verbum


#6

And yet the Nicene Creed specifically says that Jesus Christ is God from God, begotten not made, eternally begotten of the Father.


#7

Col 1

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; **all things were created by him **and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

One who is the creator of “all things” is NOT himself a thing that was created, unless one wants to be illogical and say he created himself?

Watchtower slaves in this text will misdefine the meaning of “firstborn” to mean first created. They are simply reading their theology into the text. Then they in their nwt insert the word “other” after the word “all” in this text. NO greek manuscript, no NOT one has the word “other” in the greek text. They are simply reading their false antichrist interpretation into the text.


#8

This is a very interesting question…one that I basically just posted on another board where I discovered truth in Catholicism. The reality is that many non-Catholic Christians treat Jesus like he was merely a son with less importance other than to act as a sacrifice, period. I read in Week II, Wednesday Evening prayer second song option…“Jesus prays for you”. This I find interesting because I never thought of God praying for us.

Much like Christ, the Holy Spirit from our former fundamental evangelical faith seemed to have been killed, put aside. What is interesting is that in order to accept the trinity what must we believe and why? Why was the filioque such a big deal to the Orthodox Church if in fact God consists of 3 distinct persons, all equal that form one God?

Sorry if I sound off topic, but this triggered thought.


#9

Verb…

I appreciate your response, however, just wanted to clarify, I completely agree with the Trinity. I was merely trying to get more information on why JW believe that Jesus was created.

In other words, my post was simply a nonthreatening way of asking Bible Steve for more information as well as respectfully challenging him on this postion.

My apologies if i confused you in thinking this is what i personally believed. Though i do not nor will ever claim to understand completely the trinity, One god, three persons!

In Christ


#10

Hi Mike,

And yet the Nicene Creed specifically says that Jesus Christ is God from God, begotten not made, eternally begotten of the Father.

I specificallly identified the man Jesus as having a beginning, or if you wish, having assumed our human nature at a specific time in history. But Jesus is a divine person and as such, he is divine and eternal.

The creed spends a lot of time speaking of Jesus Christ as God before saying that he was"made man".

True, he is called “Jesus Christ”, since that is how we know him now, but the angel told Joseph. “she will bring forth a son to whom you shall give the name of Jesus”. (Matthew 1, 21) He got his name in time.

Verbum

Verbum


#11

Hi Heisenberg,

I did not doubt that you believe in the Trinity. Many misunderstandings arise from the fact that the Catholic position is misunderstood. I was just stating the Catholic position in as simple terms as possible.

The Jehovah Witnesses have made their own translation of the Bible to support their positions.

Here is the beginning of John’s gospel in their “translation” :

1

In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God,** and the Word was a god.** 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

Decades ago, they claimed that the words in bold should be translated as God was the word, but they finally realized that this was not grammatically tenable, so they changed to this. There is no justification for translating the Greek word “theos” as God and god in the same sentence.

But they will of course use their own bible, so there’s really no point in arguing with them Be kind and courteous, give a good example and pray for them.

For full text of above see ;

watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm

They have the whole “bible” online, so you can have fun comparing their “translation” with the Christian ones.

Verbum


#12

Read Romans 8, the Holy Spirit also prays for you and that does not mean he is less than being God by nature. So, it is possible for one to believe that Jesus as God does in fact pray for you.

26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.

28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

:thumbsup:


#13

Jesus was created by YHWH

Hi

So is every human being.

Thanks


#14

No.

Jesus is God, and Mohammed was wrong.

Thanks.


#15

The mystery of the Holy Trinity is an amazing thing. It never seizes to to facinate just how little we know when we think we know so much…
and coming from a very strong solo scriptura background you’d think I’d have realized that by now. The mind plays tricks on you…this is a perfect example of why we need the teaching authority of the Church.


#16

Re: Jesus was created by YHWH

Originally Posted by paarsurrey
Hi

So is every human being.

Thanks

Hi

Have you not been created by GodAllahYHWH?

Do you not believe that everything has been created by GodAllahYHWH?

Please read Genesis to verify it.

Thanks


#17

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