Jesus's Suffering for possibility of our Sins to be Justfully Punished


#1

I’m having a hard time grasping the concept that in order for us to be justfully punished for our sins (Purgatory), Jesus had to be crucified.

Islam teaches that a person is justfully punished for their sins, according to the severity.

Catholicism teaches that a person is justfully punished for their sins, according to the severity BUT in order for that to be possible the Son of God was sent to earth to be tortured, beaten and killed.

It’s as if one of your co-workers spit at, cursed at and hated you. But then afterwards they apologize to you and even work & suffer on your behalf to make up for their awful deeds. Everything is well and all is just, but in order for this to be possible in the first place you’d have to have your son sent somewhere to be beaten and tortured. See what I mean? Any help would be very well appreciated.


#2

your understanding of Catholic teaching is so distorted I could not begin to address your deliberately provacative question in any worthwhile way. Please go to the CA home page and click on the relevant tracts on purgatory, salvation and justification.


#3

[quote=puzzleannie]your understanding of Catholic teaching is so distorted I could not begin to address your deliberately provacative question in any worthwhile way. Please go to the CA home page and click on the relevant tracts on purgatory, salvation and justification.
[/quote]

I did NOT deliberately state anything wrong. Suffering in Purgatory for your sins IS punishment, is it not? And Jesus had to be crucified in order for the possibly for our sins to be justfully punished…WHAT exactly is untruthful and distorted about that statement?? All I’m asking is why Jesus had to suffer in order for us to make up for our sins to go to Heaven, that’s not a twisted question at all! Go ahead and tell me ONE thing I stated that was wrong in that post. I suggest you go back to first grade or open up the dictionary to learn what some obvious words mean, because you haven’t showed to me any ounce of intelligence…

Now, is there any person here who actually UNDERSTANDS ENGLISH (not mentioning any names *cough *cough…besides puzzleannie) who could help me understand this concept?

Why did Jesus have to suffer in order for our sins to possibly be justfully punished?


#4

From your chosen title of the thread, I think it helpful to say that our sins could have been punished even if Jesus hypothetically had not come.

Generally, I would not compare the offense of sin to the offense between two people only in this context. For me, when I sin, the principle person I offend against is God. There is no way for me to fully restore or make up for the offense against such a person as God. He is God, one, perfect, creator, etc. I cannot offer him anything suitable to balance it out for what I have done.

Jesus can/did offer something worthy/suitable to balance it out.

God could have elected to deal with our sin with some other scheme, but he didn’t.


#5

[quote=Pug]From your chosen title of the thread, I think it helpful to say that our sins could have been punished even if Jesus hypothetically had not come.

Generally, I would not compare the offense of sin to the offense between two people only in this context. For me, when I sin, the principle person I offend against is God. There is no way for me to fully restore or make up for the offense against such a person as God. He is God, one, perfect, creator, etc. I cannot offer him anything suitable to balance it out for what I have done.

Jesus can/did offer something worthy/suitable to balance it out.

God could have elected to deal with our sin with some other scheme, but he didn’t.
[/quote]

Something’s clicking now lol. So because of mankinds’ sinful acts that offend God, making up for them is still not good enough to meet the required punishement because God is indescribebly more perfect then us, so it’d take a perfect entity (himself) to have to partake in the suffering for these acts, right? It’s becoming a bit clearer.


#6

[quote=PMV]Something’s clicking now lol. So because of mankinds’ sinful acts that offend God, making up for them is still not good enough to meet the required punishement because God is indescribebly more perfect then us, so it’d take a perfect entity (himself) to have to partake in the suffering for these acts, right? It’s becoming a bit clearer.
[/quote]

Yes. I would not choose the phrase “required punishment”, because God voluntarily sent his Son and what the Son did was voluntary and God could have done another scheme if he wanted to, but you probably mean “required” as in “had to be that good to be equal or better”. Yes, it required someone who had something worthy to give, and Jesus is worthy because of who he is (perfect, infinite, 2nd person of trinity, etc).

Not sure if this is part of your question, but Jesus and what he did in fact is abundantly enough, that is, more than enough.


#7

PMV:

I’m having a hard time grasping the concept that in order for us to be justfully punished for our sins (Purgatory), Jesus had to be crucified.

Somewhere between death and heaven, we must undergo purification.

Scripture tells us that nothing impure can enter into heaven.

Why do you perceive purgatory as “punishment for our sins”?

Many of us, perhaps yourself excluded, must be purged of less than pure habits/attachments that we now exhibit.

The vast majority of my non-Catholic friends admit to this.

If you showed up at the King’s dinner party somewhat soiled with mud, would you want to be cleaned up a bit first, or barge right in?

Peace in Christ…Salmon


#8

[quote=Salmon]PMV:

Somewhere between death and heaven, we must undergo purification.

Scripture tells us that nothing impure can enter into heaven.

Why do you perceive purgatory as “punishment for our sins”?
[/quote]

Because the purification is done by suffering. Do you consider that not to be a punishment? Also if you’ve read about Purgatory in *Catholicism for Dummies *it even says straight out that it is punishment for our sins, and from what I know priests helped make that book.

[quote=Salmon]Many of us, perhaps yourself excluded, must be purged of less than pure habits/attachments that we now exhibit.
[/quote]

What on earth did you mean by that? We have to be purified from the materials we have now (oook), but perhaps with me excluded?? Was that a pathetic insult? How about explaining this statement better?

[quote=Salmon]If you showed up at the King’s dinner party somewhat soiled with mud, would you want to be cleaned up a bit first, or barge right in?
[/quote]

I know excactly what you mean by that statement, as I’ve heard numbers of similiar ones to that. I completely understand Purgatory’s purpose, but it’s the reasoning behind it (Christ’s death) I somewhat lack to understand.


#9

I could be wrong, but I never knew/heard that Purgatory was punishment so much as necessary suffering… like when you’re a little kid and you get real dirty so mom has to really scrub you clean: not really punishment, just something required to fix the problem.

Again, I don’t really know… but it always seemed to me that the crucifixion made it possible for us to avoid our just punishment (hell) and insted of justice, recieve mercy.

Please, please correct me if I’m wrong!


#10

[quote=PMV]Because the purification is done by suffering. Do you consider that not to be a punishment?
[/quote]

When a tobacco smoker experiences nicotine withdrawal when “kicking the habit”, is that punishment? Have you ever seen an alcoholic suffer from the DT’s when getting off the bottle? The sweats, tremors and terror in the eyes of narcotic addicts who can’t get a fix? I have, and it is true suffering, but not “punishment” in the sense you are using it here.

It appears that you would agree that “punishment”, is a descriptive term that carries far too much retributive baggage. God is not “paying us back”.

There are thousands of other examples that could be used to illustrate the discomforts we undergo when ridding ourselves of attachments to this world.

Both the OT and the NT include referencing to putting our hands to the plow and never looking back. Imagine yourself laying on your deathbed, surrounded by friends and family. The more longing you have for remaining in this world, the more attachments to this world you must be lose in purification.

If we had to depend upon ourselves for the sanctification, or purity, necessary to attain heaven, how many of us would make it? God, in His mercy, cleanses us sufficiently to make the grade.

CCC: 1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

CCC: 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come

—St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31.

My question to you, PMV: Since scripture tells us that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in the age to come (Matt. 12:31), just what sins WILL be forgiven in the age to come? How will this be accomplished? Why in the age to come and not now?

More to come in bite-sized morsels.

Peace in Christ…Salmon


#11

[quote=PMV] Also if you’ve read about Purgatory in *Catholicism for Dummies *it even says straight out that it is punishment for our sins, and from what I know priests helped make that book.
[/quote]

While “Catholicism for Dummies” is a well-intentioned book that deals a bit simplistically with Catholic teachings, it is hardly an authoritative teaching document.

The Cathechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) is available online at:

Catechism

and has been described by John Paul II: “I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion.”

When the same claim is made for “Catholicism for Dummies”, I will hold it in the same esteem.

With that in mind, there are some useful insights in CFD:
“It may help to think of the purgatory in terms of a major operation to save a life. Say a doctor performs surgery on someone’s heart or brain and removes a cancerous tumor. The surgery achieves the main objective, but the wound needs to heal, and the incision needs to be cleaned and rebandaged. Purgatory is like that secondary part of recovery - the healing, cleaning, and bandaging.
The belief is that the evil of sin is revealed to the person so she can totally and absolutely reject even the most venial and smallest of sins.” — CFD p. 289

Your point regarding purgatory as punishment:
"Purgatory is more than the temporal punishment for sin. It’s also the cleansing from the attachment to sin. Purgatory purifies the soul before the soul’s grand entrance into heaven. " — CFD p. 289

The emphasis is clearly on the cleansing or purification of the individual, but it is hard to fault you too gravely for what might be considered a less than exact phrasing. It is a good idea to always reference the Catechism when questions arise.

“Often, after committing a sin, people later regret it and are remorseful. Catholics confess their sins and believe that God forgives them in the Sacrament of Penance. However, many times people still have pleasant memories of those sins. They’re sorry and regret doing them, but they have some enjoyable and pleasurable memories - some leftover attachment to the sins. Catholicism teaches that the souls in purgatory want to be in purgatory, because they know that they have some leftover attachment to sin that they want to be removed.” — CFD p. 290

You say: “Also if you’ve read about Purgatory in Catholicism for Dummies it even says straight out that it is punishment for our sins…”

Please understand that we don’t “want punishment”. We do and shall “want purification”.

One last comparison:
“Pretend that you went to an ear, nose, and throat doctor, and he said that you have allergies, and one of them is to dust mites. Now, dust mites can’t be seen, so people usually aren’t too concerned or worried about them until they see them under an electron microscope, which reveals how ugly and harmful these critters are. After you see them, you never look at dust the same way again, and you never want to get anywhere near those mites, because you have an idea how nasty they really are. Anyway, you can think of purgatory like a spiritual electron microscope that shows all that nasty sin - mortal and venial -revealing how dangerous and harmful any sin is to the soul. Purgatory allows people to recognize that even one small sin is repugnant and offensive to an all-loving and all-good God.” — CFD p. 290

While this is not an exhaustive set of quotations from Catholicism for Dummies, it should serve to illustrate that the emphasis is not on “punishment”, but upon the purgative aspect of purgatory.

More to come.

Peace in Christ…Salmon


#12

Originally Posted by Salmon:

Many of us, perhaps yourself excluded, must be purged of less than pure habits/attachments that we now exhibit.

[quote=PMV] What on earth did you mean by that? We have to be purified from the materials we have now (oook), but perhaps with me excluded?? Was that a pathetic insult? How about explaining this statement better?
[/quote]

The Catholic Church teaches that some, that is those totally devoid of God’s sanctifying grace, will go to hell after death. For others, God can accomplish the necessary sanctification while they walk the earth. They may be greeted with a “Well done good and faithful servant” as they enter directly into heaven.

Others, perhaps a majority…perhaps not, may require a bit of cleansing prior to admission to the King’s banquet.

You may or may not require further sanctification. It is not for me to make any judgment upon you.

1 Corinthians 4:2-4 (KJV) 3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

Why do you feel insulted when someone refuses to judge you?

Originally Posted by Salmon:
If you showed up at the King’s dinner party somewhat soiled with mud, would you want to be cleaned up a bit first, or barge right in?

PMV:

I know exactly what you mean by that statement, as I’ve heard numbers of similiar ones to that. I completely understand Purgatory’s purpose…

If you continue to think of purgatory as “punishment” as retribution by God, perhaps you don’t “completely understand Purgatory’s purpose”.

PMV:

but it’s the reasoning behind it (Christ’s death) I somewhat lack to understand.

Christ’s sacrifice displays the infinite depth of God’s mercy and love. Our sanctification in purgatory is another facet of this incomprehensible wonder that is given to us.

For a scriptural treatment of purgatory, feel free to visit:

The concept of purgatory in scripture

Peace in Christ…Salmon


#13

Salmon, I read all your statements and it became MUCH clearer to me. Thanks very much! Sorry if I seemed a bit angry; I took what you said about being free from materialism wrong. Actually, I don’t know why I would have been insulted. Anyway, the *suffering *issue is much more understandable to me now especially because of your example with withdrawal. I appreciate your time.


#14

PMV, you display Christian virtue that we would all do well to imitate.

Thank you for your example.

Peace in Chist…Salmon


#15

God cannot lie. God tells man that if he eats from the tree of knowledge he will die. Man eats from the tree of knowledge. Man is doomed to die by the power of God’s word. It is Jesus who dies in our place to fulfill God’s word. We are redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ our Saviour.

NAB GENESIS 2:15
"You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die."


NAB JOHN 12:47
"If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I am not the one to condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words already has his judge, namely, the word I have spoken - it is that which will condemn him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me."

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com


#16

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