Jews are the chosen people?

[quote=JKirkLVNV]God’s covenant with the Jews IS eternal and it IS salvific…provided it includes Jesus, as He is the covenant’s Fufillment. If it doesn’t, then it ain’t.
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In a major address in 1980, Pope John Paul II linked the renewed understanding of Scripture with the** Church’s understanding of its relationship with the Jewish people, stating that the dialogue, as “the meeting between the people of God of the Old Covenant, never revoked by God,** is at the same time a dialogue within our Church, that is to say, a dialogue between the first and second part of its Bible” (Pope John Paul II, Mainz, November 17, 1980).

[quote=LatinCat]The reason why non-Christian Jews are not the chosen people is simple: They rejected the fulfilled covent God offered them in Christ Jesus.
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With direct reference to Luke 19:44, the Second Vatican Council reminded Catholics that "nevertheless, now as before, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their fathers
Nostra Aetate, no. 4; cf. 1985 Notes, VI:33).;

[quote=katewithak]In a major address in 1980, Pope John Paul II linked the renewed understanding of Scripture with the** Church’s understanding of its relationship with the Jewish people, stating that the dialogue, as “the meeting between the people of God of the Old Covenant, never revoked by God,** is at the same time a dialogue within our Church, that is to say, a dialogue between the first and second part of its Bible” (Pope John Paul II, Mainz, November 17, 1980).
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But apart from Christ, is that covenant salvific? Remember, God DID bring them to the land of promise, did make them as numberless as the stars, etc. And I don’t think the old Holy Father was incorrect at all: God didn’t revoke the covenant, He fufilled it.

[quote=JKirkLVNV]But apart from Christ, is that covenant salvific? Remember, God DID bring them to the land of promise, did make them as numberless as the stars, etc. And I don’t think the old Holy Father was incorrect at all: God didn’t revoke the covenant, He fufilled it.
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Firstly, nothing is apart from Christ. Therefore that would be a moot point. And yes, I would think the covenant is salvific. Since it was fulfilled in Christ, it never stopped being salvific. Their failure to recognize the Messiah when he arrived did not end their covenant with the God of Abraham, the Covenant for the Jews holds true.

[quote=katewithak]Firstly, nothing is apart from Christ. Therefore that would be a moot point. And yes, I would think the covenant is salvific. Since it was fulfilled in Christ, it never stopped being salvific. Their failure to recognize the Messiah when he arrived did not end their covenant with the God of Abraham, the Covenant for the Jews holds true.
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So you think there are two plans of salvation?

If you do, please explain how the law is salvific since the NT and Church teaching is quite clear that it isn’t.

Romans 11:17-29 The Jews and the Gentiles
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you. 19 Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. 22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree. 25 I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in, 26 and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob; 27 and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 28 In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs. 29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

[quote=jpy15026]Romans 11:17-29 The Jews and the Gentiles
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you. 19 Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. 22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree. 25 I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in, 26 and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob; 27 and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 28 In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs. 29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
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Many in our Church try to Judaize the above scriptures but as the Council of Florence states:It firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors. (Denzinger 712)

[left]Again we see that the law is not salvific.[/left]

Was Gods covenant with Abraham conditional or unconditional was it temporary or everlasting? Its that simple if you can answer these two questions you have the correct answer.

[quote=SolaChristo]Was Gods covenant with Abraham conditional or unconditional was it temporary or everlasting? Its that simple if you can answer these two questions you have the correct answer.
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I believe technically speaking the Old Covenant refers only to the Mosaic Law as defined in 2Cor 3:6-14. Note in particular that in verse 14 the phrase “Old Covenant” is used only in reference to the Mosaic Law which we learn in verse 7 is a “ministry of death”.

The law can not save anyone whatsoever and this has been the consistent teaching of scripture and our Church.

[quote=SolaChristo]Was Gods covenant with Abraham conditional or unconditional was it temporary or everlasting? Its that simple if you can answer these two questions you have the correct answer.
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By the way, the Jewish element of the Abrahamic covenant (circumcision) was abolished forever when St. Peter declared that circumcision would no longer be regarded as a requirement for God’s favor (Acts 15:1-12).

It is also interesting that the Abrahamic covenant was established while Abraham was still a Gentile.

[quote=SolaChristo]Was Gods covenant with Abraham conditional or unconditional was it temporary or everlasting? Its that simple if you can answer these two questions you have the correct answer.
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Church’s understanding of its relationship with the Jewish people, stating that the dialogue, as "the meeting between the people of God of the Old Covenant, never revoked by God, is at the same time a dialogue within our Church, that is to say, a dialogue between the first and second part of its Bible" (Pope John Paul II, Mainz, November 17, 1980).

[quote=katewithak]Church’s understanding of its relationship with the Jewish people, stating that the dialogue, as "the meeting between the people of God of the Old Covenant, never revoked by God, is at the same time a dialogue within our Church, that is to say, a dialogue between the first and second part of its Bible" (Pope John Paul II, Mainz, November 17, 1980).
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What exactly do you believe is being referred to as the “Old Covenant” in the above statement?

[quote=bigdawg]I believe technically speaking the Old Covenant refers only to the Mosaic Law as defined in 2Cor 3:6-14. Note in particular that in verse 14 the phrase “Old Covenant” is used only in reference to the Mosaic Law which we learn in verse 7 is a “ministry of death”.

The law can not save anyone whatsoever and this has been the consistent teaching of scripture and our Church.
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there are hundreds of covenants in the Old Testament Im refering specificaaly to the Abrahamiac Covenant.

As I mentioned before, one should distinguish between the Old Covenant (which is no longer in effect, it has been revoked) and the Abrahamic Covenant.

If you want to say that the Abrahamic covenant is still in force or in effect, thats okay. But, Holy Scripture does not nor and magisterial teaching does not ever refer to the Abrahamic Covenant as the “old covenant”.

Furthermore, it is not true that the Abrahamic covenant was made exclusively for the Jews or connected only with Judaism.

We see in Galatians 3:8 that the Abrahamic covenant was made with the Gentiles in mind. Saint Paul says “Scripture, which saw in advance that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, foretold the good news to Abraham, saying, ‘Through you shall all the nations be blessed’” (NAB).

The above is true because Galations 3:8 is quoting Genesis 12:1-3. In Genesis 12:1-3, Abraham was still a Gentile…he wasn’t a Jew.

Jews are not excluded from the Abrhamic covenant and they can be incorporated into the Abrahamic covenant if they accept Christ. We see in Luke 1:72-73 how this happens: “He…remembered his holy covenant, the oath which he swore to Abraham our father”. St. Paul says in Romans 11:23 that God is able to “graft them [the Jews] in again” if they “do not continue in their unbelief.” The Abrahamic covenant deals with faith in Christ, not Law, and it has become the New Covenant.

St Paul makes it very clear in Galatians 3:17-19 that the “old covenant” (the Mosaic law, which “came 430 years later”) was superceded by God’s “promises” to Abraham, and whereas the former was taken away, the latter continued.

It is the same reason that St. Paul says in Galatians 3:29 that if we are “Christ’s then we are Abraham’s seed,” and why Jesus says to the Jews that “Abraham your father rejoiced to see My day” (John 8:56).

(above summarized from catholic.com or scripturecatholic.com or some other book or other apologetics site, can’t remember who)

The New Conevant is the same Covenant God made with Abraham. Only it is fulfilled in Christ. Israel was God’s chosen people. Israel at one time consisted primarily of those of the Jewish race. Under the New Covenant Gentiles have been grafted into that that same Covenant. So Israel consists of Jews and Gentiles - all those who are in Christ. Those Jews who reject Christ are “cut off” from the Covenant. Those Jews who are Christians are are members of Israel along with Gentile Christians.

Think of it this way. What was available to the Hebrews in part, became available to all men, Jews and Gentiles, in full. I can tell you as an ethnic Jew that my heritage (which I am proud of) means nothing without Christ.

The only true Jew is the true Christian, the Jew of the heart as Scripture says. St. Paul consisdered his heritage dung for the sake of Christ. Anyone who thinks a Jew can be saved by virtue of the Mosaic Covenant needs to read the Scriptures. Salvation is from the Jews via Christ the Jewish God-Man. It is for everyone.

To reject Christ is to reject the Abrahamic Covenant. So pray for the Jews that they would be converted and grafted back into the Covenant people of God. God’s chosen people are those who are found in God’s chosen one - The Messiah.

Dave

bigdawg, a question (or 2): Jesus included the 10 commandments for example in his teachings (of course he also kicked them up a notch in how well to obey them).

Is the “law” to obey the 10 commandments still in effect in the new covenant in your understanding? Did Jesus just include bits and pieces of that covenant in His new one? How exactly do you believe that the old covenant became the new?

Thanks.

God came in the person of our Lord Jesus Christ - both human and divine. They cannot be separated.

To say that the old covenant is still active is to deny our Lord Jesus Christ divinity.

Roy Schoemans Salvation Is From The Jews, is a good resource for this discussion. Along with being a very good book.

[quote=jpusateri]bigdawg, a question (or 2): Jesus included the 10 commandments for example in his teachings (of course he also kicked them up a notch in how well to obey them).

Is the “law” to obey the 10 commandments still in effect in the new covenant in your understanding? Did Jesus just include bits and pieces of that covenant in His new one? How exactly do you believe that the old covenant became the new?

Thanks.
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I’ll try to answer your question on the decalogue and will have to try to answer your other questions later.

The law from the Old Covenant (civil, ceremonial, moral, etc.) does not survive today…none of it does. The principles of lawful conduct do carry over into the New Covenant. The New Covenant restates those principles from the OC, and as it does, it improves upon those principles, see Romans 13:1-14; Gal 5:1-22; James 2:1-13; and Hebrews 10:26-31.

Scripture makes clear, as does magesterial teaching, that if any of the Old Covenant laws were still in force today, then we would all be condemned by them, see Gal 3:10-12; and Romans 3:19-20; 5:20; 7:6-11. Additionally, the Council of Florence was quite clear about the effects of trying to Judaize Christianity.

The Catholic Church is the chief interpreter and legislator of the New Covenant. For example, as you can see in Acts 15, circumcision is no longer required…the Church made this decision.

Essentially, the laws that the New Covenant did not carry over from the Old Covenant and make its own no longer apply to us (or anyone else for that matter), and the laws that the New Covenant carried over are very much applicable to us today.

It is still wrong to say that we are under a system of law, we are not, we are under a system of grace.

This is what I like about this board :wink: , no one is reading what I wrote and assuming it is what they are thinking.
There are hundreds of covenants in the Old Testament.
The Abrahamiac covenant is neither conditional or is it temprary.
The Abrahamiac covenant was to Abraham and his descendants not to the gentiles the New Covenant is for the gentiles.
The question is have the Jewish people stoped being Gods chosen people? The answer is no, they are still acoording to the covenant made with Abraham. Are gentile believers Gods people? Yes according to the New Covenant given to all who believe that Jesus is the Christ and confess that He has been raised from the dead.

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