Jimmy Swaggart: evangelist, televangelist


#1

How do the Jimmy Swaggarts followers define the Eucharist in the Bible or in John which is consistant with OT/NT scripture.

I've heard him speak Bible and he seems pretty proficent, however this issue in particular is avoided. Then the CC and Apostolic Churchs are just slandered as cults. Let alone Mormons, Calvinists etc. But somehow Luther is OK with them????

I don't get this, considering Luther in essense took the Mass from the Catholic Monestary he practiced the faith at. :shrug: However Luthers justification is referred to basically all the time. And of course his condemnation of the Apostolic Churchs.

I find it astounding the man re-wrote the Bible adding his own verse definition/interpretation after every verse:shrug:

I admit I have never seen John or its interpretations.

Peace


#2

From what I understand on Luther's translation is he used the same methods the Jews used in choosing the books of the Bible. There are a certain of tests, which I do not know, that each book goes through. Luther made mistakes by leaving out few books that are now found in Protestant Bibles.

If someone could clarify this it would be great. I am working on a defense of the faith vs a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran.


#3

[quote="GaryTaylor, post:1, topic:267603"]
How do the Jimmy Swaggarts followers define the Eucharist in the Bible or in John which is consistant with OT/NT scripture.

I've heard him speak Bible and he seems pretty proficent, however this issue in particular is avoided. Then the CC and Apostolic Churchs are just slandered as cults. Let alone Mormons, Calvinists etc. But somehow Luther is OK with them????

I don't get this, considering Luther in essense took the Mass from the Catholic Monestary he practiced the faith at. :shrug: However Luthers justification is referred to basically all the time. And of course his condemnation of the Apostolic Churchs.

I find it astounding the man re-wrote the Bible adding his own verse definition/interpretation after every verse:shrug:

I admit I have never seen John or its interpretations.

Peace

[/quote]

I don't know. I don't really follow Jimmy Swaggart, but he was an Assemblies of God pastor for years before the "recent unpleasantness." Their statement on communion is:

Holy Communion
The Lord's Supper, consisting of the elements --bread and the fruit of the vine-- is the symbol expressing our sharing the divine nature of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:4 [KJV/NIV]), a memorial of his suffering and death (1 Corinthians 11:26 [KJV/NIV]), and a prophecy of His second coming (1 Corinthians 11:26 [KJV/NIV]), and is enjoined on all believers "till He come!"

I would be pretty sure that his beliefs are pretty much still inline with this statement. As you can see, it really doesn't address John at all, but then again this is a simple article in their denominational statement of belief. It wasn't meant to be fully definitive.


#4

[quote="ltwin, post:3, topic:267603"]
He was an Assemblies of God pastor for years before the "recent unpleasantness." Their statement on communion is:
I would be pretty sure that his beliefs are pretty much still inline with this statement. As you can see, it really doesn't address John at all, but then again this is a simple article in their denominational statement of belief. It wasn't meant to be fully definitive.

[/quote]

Thanks Itwin, Merry Christmas...

He's next to EWTN in this area, so once in while I'll listen to his callers.

Peace


#5

[quote="michaelmas, post:2, topic:267603"]
From what I understand on Luther's translation is he used the same methods the Jews used in choosing the books of the Bible. There are a certain of tests, which I do not know, that each book goes through. Luther made mistakes by leaving out few books that are now found in Protestant Bibles.

If someone could clarify this it would be great. I am working on a defense of the faith vs a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran.

[/quote]

In 1522 Luther finished his translation of the NT which included all 27 books, though he ordered them to express the disputed nature of some of the books. His 1534 completed translation included all 73 books typical of a western Bible, plus the Prayer of Manassess.

Jon


#6

Really I think Jimmy is just using the age old tactic of playing up your opponents weaknesses and downplaying your own weaknesses. Not only that but since he seems to be a proponent of the "Bible is almost always literal belief" he would want to avoid passages that he takes a less than literal view of, lest his congregation think he is a hypocrite or God forbid, think the Catholics are right. Which is why he would avoid John 6 and Matthew 16:18.


#7

[quote="GaryTaylor, post:1, topic:267603"]
How do the Jimmy Swaggarts followers define the Eucharist in the Bible or in John which is consistant with OT/NT scripture.

I've heard him speak Bible and he seems pretty proficent, however this issue in particular is avoided. Then the CC and Apostolic Churchs are just slandered as cults. Let alone Mormons, Calvinists etc.** But somehow Luther is OK with them????**

I don't get this, considering Luther in essense took the Mass from the Catholic Monestary he practiced the faith at. :shrug: However Luthers justification is referred to basically all the time. And of course his condemnation of the Apostolic Churchs.

I find it astounding the man re-wrote the Bible adding his own verse definition/interpretation after every verse:shrug:

I admit I have never seen John or its interpretations.

Peace

[/quote]

And also with you, Gary.

I don't ever watch Swaggart (or any of the other televangelists). In what way does he says Luther is ok with him?

Just curious,
Jon


#8

[quote="JonNC, post:7, topic:267603"]
And also with you, Gary.

I don't ever watch Swaggart (or any of the other televangelists). In what way does he says Luther is ok with him?

Just curious,
Jon

[/quote]

He begins to paraphase Luthers activity in Rome with the CC from his writtings. Which I've read the Holy Stairs etc. He gets a bit extrodinary. He's a bit monetary gain oriented if you ask me. Lot of half-truth about all the churchs and how they all worship.


#9

[quote="GaryTaylor, post:1, topic:267603"]
How do the Jimmy Swaggarts followers define the Eucharist in the Bible or in John which is consistant with OT/NT scripture.

I've heard him speak Bible and he seems pretty proficent, however this issue in particular is avoided. Then the CC and Apostolic Churchs are just slandered as cults. Let alone Mormons, Calvinists etc. But somehow Luther is OK with them????

I don't get this, considering Luther in essense took the Mass from the Catholic Monestary he practiced the faith at. :shrug: However Luthers justification is referred to basically all the time. And of course his condemnation of the Apostolic Churchs.

I find it astounding the man re-wrote the Bible adding his own verse definition/interpretation after every verse:shrug:

I admit I have never seen John or its interpretations.

Peace

[/quote]

Have you heard Swaggart slander the CC and Apostolic Churches, or called them cults? I'm not saying you haven't, I'm just seeking clarification. I couldn't say that because I haven't heard him for years, and don't really know what he's teaching these days. But I am AG and he was AG, and I am familiar with their teachings... and they do not, as a denomination, teach against the CC or other Apostolic Churches. They teach differently than them on some doctrines to be sure, but they don't call them out or call them names.


#10

[quote="Izdaari, post:9, topic:267603"]
Have you heard Swaggart slander the CC and Apostolic Churches, or called them cults? I'm not saying you haven't, I'm just seeking clarification. I couldn't say that because I haven't heard him for years, and don't really know what he's teaching these days. But I am AG and he was AG, and I am familiar with their teachings... and they do not, as a denomination, teach against the CC or other Apostolic Churches. They teach differently than them on some doctrines to be sure, but they don't call them out or call them names.

[/quote]

I've watched some of his stuff on TV, and it didn't seem too anti-Catholic, but look back at earlier clips of him on youtube and it's some full fledged anti-Catholicism. It seems he's toned down his anti-Catholicism in recent years, but I'm unsure if it's because his beliefs have actually changed or if it's just because anti-Catholicism isn't popular anymore.

Also, and I'm not trying to be offensive when I say this, but the only Church where an attack has been directed against the Church (and quite honestly me personally) was an AG church. What happened was I was invited about a week in advance to attend an AG service with a "friend" of mine, and since I've never been to an AG church I accepted. I met him there that Sunday and went to enter the pew and genuflected (force of habit) and I got the worst looks I have ever seen from people in my life.

But that was just the tip of the iceberg. The sermon that day was supposed to be about "Stewardship of God's Gifts" (their website listed the sermon topic for every upcoming Sunday), but when we got to the sermon it was a full fledged attack on how Catholicism was pagan, of the devil, etc. The pastor finally ended by saying that "Any Catholic visiting this day needs to come up here and confess his sins to God, renounce his evil religion, and be saved" then almost in unison every set of eyes in the church was on me. At the time I though the pastor had suddenly changed the sermon when he heard about my genuflecting, but I later found out that my "friend" had asked the pastor to preach such a sermon in order to "save me".

Now I know this is most likely not representative of the AG as a whole, but there seems to be a good bit of variance between each of the local churches to say the least.


#11

[quote="Tyuiop411, post:10, topic:267603"]
I've watched some of his stuff on TV, and it didn't seem too anti-Catholic, but look back at earlier clips of him on youtube and it's some full fledged anti-Catholicism. It seems he's toned down his anti-Catholicism in recent years, but I'm unsure if it's because his beliefs have actually changed or if it's just because anti-Catholicism isn't popular anymore.

Also, and I'm not trying to be offensive when I say this, but the only Church where an attack has been directed against the Church (and quite honestly me personally) was an AG church. What happened was I was invited about a week in advance to attend an AG service with a "friend" of mine, and since I've never been to an AG church I accepted. I met him there that Sunday and went to enter the pew and genuflected (force of habit) and I got the worst looks I have ever seen from people in my life.

But that was just the tip of the iceberg. The sermon that day was supposed to be about "Stewardship of God's Gifts" (their website listed the sermon topic for every upcoming Sunday), but when we got to the sermon it was a full fledged attack on how Catholicism was pagan, of the devil, etc. The pastor finally ended by saying that "Any Catholic visiting this day needs to come up here and confess his sins to God, renounce his evil religion, and be saved" then almost in unison every set of eyes in the church was on me. At the time I though the pastor had suddenly changed the sermon when he heard about my genuflecting, but I later found out that my "friend" had asked the pastor to preach such a sermon in order to "save me".

Now I know this is most likely not representative of the AG as a whole, but there seems to be a good bit of variance between each of the local churches to say the least.

[/quote]

Well, I'm horrified. I know the AG is definitely against the focus on Mary and the saints. They are also against the "ecumenical movement" (because they see it as being based on a false sense of unity and compromise of truth and not on actual theological agreement), but I think there is very little if any animosity between the AG and the RCC today. I'm sure most people in the AG would admit that there are born again Christians in the Catholic Church.

That being said, years ago Jimmy Swaggert was a leading critic of what he saw as not being compatible with old time Pentecostalism. This included some of the newer charismatic and Word of Faith movements. So I wouldn't say it would be impossible that he would have a stronger line against the Catholic Church than most Pentecostals today.


#12

I don’t watch Televangelist shows anymore. About the Orthodox Church, we have Church,Bible, and Tradition and. Most modernist churches read the easy bible translations in English but do not yet know about the complex history of manuscripts and scrolls that the earliest Bishops used to to put together the Bible many years later. For info, ask a orthodox priest about the official time-line detailing the history of the Church.

Seasons Greetings, God bless w.p.m.


#13

[quote="Izdaari, post:9, topic:267603"]
Have you heard Swaggart slander the CC and Apostolic Churches, or called them cults

[/quote]

Last week, along with the Jews, Mormons, Calvinists and most of the Pentecostal movement. Luther he takes what he likes, mis-quotes him in other respects, then disregards his teaching "totally", but he's big on "justification" to support his theology of God and salvation which we see below with St Paul and Romans.

So then its a systematic disregard of all the Churchs by pitting them against each other, which leaves only "his" church to be the one and only true church of God. And of course he likes Billy Graham, however Mr Grahams not taking money out his pocket today so of course no harm their. In fact he's selling Billy Grahams older talks, so in fact he's profiting off of Billy Graham.

Calvin? classic, I wish I taped it. He has Calvin and TULIP down cold. I'll give him that.

His idea of the Wailing Wall. the church Icons which have existed since 1-AD and much earlier with the Jews is Idol worship/cult. He missed the entire idealology of reverence and veneration, in truth the path to God and history of the church, and in pride rebukes all of it. Bascially as Wesley states above the Oral Tradition, Historic history of the church and its early writtings which led to the Bible. Icons dating to 1--2 AD etc. In fact his son goes on to state just how terrible all this is in detail and how it makes him sick. People don't worship Idols[for the most part I would assume], they realize that the further you see back in history the clearer you'll see the truth of the present and future. The Icons are a message, and its the message which is worshipped. not the actual physical item, even it was the actual physical Cross of Christ.

The Saints are Biblical, its "reverence" and teaching from those who walked the path before us to santification by Grace. To disregard their teachings is to severe a detailed instruction in the path to Christ. They are the road map through the darkness. The steps to heaven thus sanctification, which of course only comes through the Lords will as he wills, when he will, and to whom and how much he wills. A personal path to God detailed by each one of them in particular the Doctors of the Chruch. Do yoi have to venerate them? Well the question realy is will they bring you clarity? Of course they will. They are coverting souls to this day on earth. Fact of life.

Premise being you go straight to Christ and the rest is irrelevant. Its another half-truth. It gets back to the theory of what one "HAS TO DO" to find salavation. Thats an assumption as to the minimal required in Gods Kingdom to reach Heaven. In other words it no different than myself as a Catholic stating; "OK what is 'required' of me, what do I Have to do?"

Here you even see Catholic's who will say OK, I have to go to church of Sunday. I have to attend the Holy Days of Obligation, I have to avoid the near occasion of sin......... But how does one acheive this by only doing the minimal? Then, you even see Catholics who seriously believe you can be Pro-Choice which is "impossible" and in direct conflict with Rome. But this is what "the minimal" will do for your salvation, even in just correct understanding, never mind worship.

Of course Jerry Lee Lewis gets Jimmys props:thumbsup: I'll bet ya he has a Jerry Lee Lewis piano though. :thumbsup: In other words.......incorrect worship, thus Idol Worship.

Hey if this guy spins your wheels, God Bless.

However, whats even more amazing, is how much more extrodinary the churchs are in which the callers are following, and calling from... Angel Feathers, Gold Dust falling from the sky, people walking on the back of the pew's filled with the Holy Spirit. :rolleyes: Seriously now, it has to make you wonder just how lost Christianity has become today.

BTW I haven't watched his service, I just happen to catch the callers, calling in at the end of the show a couple times. So their questions in regards to other faiths takes him into a deeper dialogue of other faiths, in which his whole panel comments. But if you watch close, they all constantly look at each other for confidence, and not to contradict each other. Especially Jimmys son, watch him close and you'll see him look or glance over to Francis as if he might be saying something wrong. I've caught the show with Jimmy running the group and also with Francis. Its much more revealing when Francis runs the panel, though I do find her more respectful, if thats possible. Jimmy is much more in group control and in charge of the group dynamics. Francis allows the elaboration to reveal much more than Jimmy. Jimmy just nips it at the bud quickly in other words.

Francis btw who is she? Is that Jimmys wife?

Listen this is just my hard fast observation, and from a couple shows at the end with callers. So an indepth understanding I do not have of Mr Swaggarts theology, but I think I have the overall idea down and its not hard to tell where his theology is astray from Apostlic teaching.

Basically here's what Jimmy Swaggart does promote............

google.com/url?q=http://www.jsm.org/what_we_believe.php&sa=U&ei=mnr4ToaBLeXf0QHH4dCGAg&ved=0CBEQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNHWnTrDA2HnPczhWJRA2RknbBe0Ng

Whats ironic is that they then call all Christians to stick together with Abortion, Gay Marriage, Relgious Freedom, Christmas meaning during the Holidays etc.

Thus a message in conflict with itself, and basic half truths of Biblical understanding and History. I believe he has a major impact in specific areas and could do much better in uniting Christianity though

Peace


#14

[quote="Wesley7, post:12, topic:267603"]
I don't watch Televangelist shows anymore. About the Orthodox Church, we have Church,Bible, and Tradition and. Most modernist churches read the easy bible translations in English but do not yet know about the complex history of manuscripts and scrolls that the earliest Bishops used to to put together the Bible many years later. For info, ask a orthodox priest about the official time-line detailing the history of the Church.

Seasons Greetings, God bless w.p.m.

[/quote]

Right, I agree with you Wesley, and Season Blessings to you and yours also.

Grace and Peace


#15

[quote="ltwin, post:11, topic:267603"]
I think there is very little if any animosity between the AG and the RCC today. I'm sure most people in the AG would admit that there are born again Christians in the Catholic Church.

This included some of the newer charismatic and Word of Faith movements. So I wouldn't say it would be impossible that he would have a stronger line against the Catholic Church than most Pentecostals today.

[/quote]

Still is bro.

Your better with this than I am as far as understanding this fellow, as I admit my observations are limited with him.

However, for example, what does the Bible state about the Virgin Mother? It states "All Generations will call me Blessed" LUKE 1:48

I never heard Jimmy Swaggart call St Mary "Blessed". I'd much like to see or hear his exegesis on this topic

I've only see his interpretation of St Paul and only a couple chapters. Which gets back to why I asked the original question. It states he has interpreted the entire Bible and has it for sale with a comment after each Bible verse. He was commenting on Romans when I heard him, thus Luther and Justification. And he did state he was going to do Revelation live.

I have not heard John, Luke, Peter or James which I would love to read explained by him.

Peace and Blessings for the Holidays ltwin!


#16

[quote="ltwin, post:11, topic:267603"]
Well, I'm horrified. I know the AG is definitely against the focus on Mary and the saints. They are also against the "ecumenical movement" (because they see it as being based on a false sense of unity and compromise of truth and not on actual theological agreement), but I think there is very little if any animosity between the AG and the RCC today. I'm sure most people in the AG would admit that there are born again Christians in the Catholic Church.

That being said, years ago Jimmy Swaggert was a leading critic of what he saw as not being compatible with old time Pentecostalism. This included some of the newer charismatic and Word of Faith movements. So I wouldn't say it would be impossible that he would have a stronger line against the Catholic Church than most Pentecostals today.

[/quote]

I was shocked as well, I've been to Church of God and Foursquare Gospel churches and was treated with the utmost kindness (and a fair bit of curiosity). I expected the same at the AG, but that particular AG church seemed to be a anti-Catholic fundamentalists to the core. But I don't know if it's that way now that they have a new pastor,


#17

[quote="GaryTaylor, post:15, topic:267603"]
Still is bro.

Your better with this than I am as far as understanding this fellow, as I admit my observations are limited with him.

However, for example, what does the Bible state about the Virgin Mother? It states "All Generations will call me Blessed" LUKE 1:48

I never heard Jimmy Swaggart call St Mary "Blessed". I'd much like to see or hear his exegesis on this topic

I've only see his interpretation of St Paul and only a couple chapters. Which gets back to why I asked the original question. It states he has interpreted the entire Bible and has it for sale with a comment after each Bible verse. He was commenting on Romans when I heard him, thus Luther and Justification. And he did state he was going to do Revelation live.

I have not heard John, Luke, Peter or James which I would love to read explained by him.

Peace and Blessings for the Holidays ltwin!

[/quote]

Yeah, I have to say I know very little about his theology. However, essentially he was an advocate for old line Pentecostalism and had a penchant for attacking other Christians. The Bakkers and Marvin Gorman were on the other end of the spectrum, more charismatic and open.

However, I looked back in Margaret Poloma's The Assemblies of God at the Crossroads and found this illuminating quote of Swaggert's from his magazine The Evangelist in 1985.

God has spoken to me very strongly about dealing with the Catholic issue and about the issues facing the nation-issues such as abortion, homosexuality . . .

Also, its telling that Poloma says that Swaggert (before his own fall) had a hand in publicizing the moral failings of Marvin Gorman, a fellow AG minister and leader in the charismatic movement and interfaith dialogue. He was part of organizing the 1986 North American Leaders' Congress and the 1987 North American Congress of the Holy Spirit & World Evangelism. Swaggert on the other hand refused to participate in these meetings because Catholic Charismatics were involved.

So unless his beliefs have changed then, yeah it seems like he could be anti-Catholic.


#18

*Francis btw who is she? Is that Jimmys wife? *

yes she is his wife. I have to say I do like some of the music. Don't listen to his preaching but like Francais and Friends call in shows.


#19

[quote="Tyuiop411, post:16, topic:267603"]
I was shocked as well, I've been to Church of God and Foursquare Gospel churches and was treated with the utmost kindness (and a fair bit of curiosity). I expected the same at the AG, but that particular AG church seemed to be a anti-Catholic fundamentalists to the core. But I don't know if it's that way now that they have a new pastor,

[/quote]

I think it was just that particular AG church. Most seem to be right in line with Church of God and Foursquare in that respect. Certainly my own AG church is. I've carried a Catholic bible to AG services (I own and use many translations, including several Catholic ones) several times, and never gotten any negative attention for it. And yeah, a change of pastors might make all the difference.


#20

[quote="Izdaari, post:9, topic:267603"]
Have you heard Swaggart slander the CC and Apostolic Churches, or called them cults? I'm not saying you haven't, I'm just seeking clarification. I couldn't say that because I haven't heard him for years, and don't really know what he's teaching these days. But I am AG and he was AG, and I am familiar with their teachings... and they do not, as a denomination, teach against the CC or other Apostolic Churches. They teach differently than them on some doctrines to be sure, but they don't call them out or call them names.

[/quote]

I have heard Jimmy Swaggart saying that the Catholic Church is a cult, so does his sons and his staff.


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