(John 14:15) "If you love me you will keep my commandmens." Do You?


#1

Usury: (Ezekiel 18:13) “_____ charges usury on loans and takes interest, then this son shall certainly not live; having committed all these appalling crimes he will have to die, and his blood be on his own head.” And Jesus raises Usury to a higher level

(Luke 6:35) “Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return. You will have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.”

God doesn’t use the word, excessive, when He talks about interest.

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.” Now don’t you think a savings account in a bank is both storing and charging interest?

Do you deliberately commit sin?

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

(Romans 12:18-21) “Do all you can to live at peace with everyone. Never try to get revenge; leave that, my friends, to God’s anger. As scripture says: ‘vengeance is mine – I will pay them back, the Lord promises.”

Do you love your enemies?


#2

[quote=Giver]Usury: (Ezekiel 18:13) “_____ charges usury on loans and takes interest, then this son shall certainly not live; having committed all these appalling crimes he will have to die, and his blood be on his own head.” And Jesus raises Usury to a higher level

(Luke 6:35) “Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return. You will have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.”

God doesn’t use the word, excessive, when He talks about interest.

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.” Now don’t you think a savings account in a bank is both storing and charging interest?

Do you deliberately commit sin?

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

(Romans 12:18-21) “Do all you can to live at peace with everyone. Never try to get revenge; leave that, my friends, to God’s anger. As scripture says: ‘vengeance is mine – I will pay them back, the Lord promises.”

Do you love your enemies?
[/quote]

I’m not sure if you are asking us something or trying to tell us something.


#3

I too am a little confused…Are you saying that having a savings account in the bank is sinful?


#4

[quote=thistle]I’m not sure if you are asking us something or trying to tell us something.
[/quote]

Both!


#5

[quote=Giver]Both!
[/quote]

Well it would be nice if you could make things clearer as it seems nobody (2 of us) so far understands the point of your thread.


#6

I deliberately commit sin. There is no other way to commit it, actually.

I don’t really have any enemies that I am conscious of. I try to harbor no vengence.

For the record, “lending without expecting return” is called “giving”, and ceases to be lending.

Phil


#7

[quote=Philthy]I deliberately commit sin. There is no other way to commit it, actually.

I don’t really have any enemies that I am conscious of. I try to harbor no vengence.

For the record, “lending without expecting return” is called “giving”, and ceases to be lending.

Phil
[/quote]

Why then didn’t Jesus say giving?


#8

I deliberately commit sin. There is no other way to commit it, actually.

Disagree.

If i were to ever say that i deliberately commit sin, then I am not even worthy to ask for Gods Mercy.

St Francis. Pray for us.

In Christ.

Andre.


#9

[quote=Magicsilence]Disagree.

If i were to ever say that i deliberately commit sin, then I am not even worthy to ask for Gods Mercy.

St Francis. Pray for us.

In Christ.

Andre.
[/quote]

I didn’t write (Hebrews 10:26-31) nor did I write:

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(2 Peter 2:20-22)”and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world once by coming to know the Lord and savior Jesus Christ, and who then allows himself to be entangled by it a second time and mastered, will end up in a worse state than he began in.” (I wont have enough room to finish this, but you can find it in your Bible.)

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”
Giver


#10

Giver…you have a few fish who are taking your bait…when will you set the hook?


#11

[quote=Magicsilence]Disagree.

If i were to ever say that i deliberately commit sin, then I am not even worthy to ask for Gods Mercy.

St Francis. Pray for us.

In Christ.

Andre.
[/quote]

Anyone who is in a state of mortal sin has committed the sin deliberately. That is one of the conditions for the sin being mortal.


#12

[quote=thistle]Anyone who is in a state of mortal sin has committed the sin deliberately. That is one of the conditions for the sin being mortal.
[/quote]

Indeed.

Mortal sin requires full consent.

I am ashamed to say i still commit venial sins without full consent.

I do not deliberately hurt My Lord who has done so much for me.

In Christ.

Andre.


#13

For a savings account in the bank, I am not charging interest, they are choosing to give me interest. (The bank is the one who sets the rates of interest on savings accounts! They could make it 0.00% if they wanted to).

Plus, they take more from me in fees than they give me in interest, so I’m actually not getting any money from them.

And finally
Neither me nor anyone else should post in this thread (alright, maybe I should take my own advice). When you see that under religion on someone’s profile it says anything other than Catholic (in this case it says Christian) and they have made a thread trying to explain something with all bible quotes then you know that no-one is going to get any benefit from reading this thread - it’s like deliberately going to a Protestant bible study group.


#14

Deuteronomy 23:20 (English Standard Version)
You may charge a foreigner interest, but you may not charge your brother interest, that the LORD your God may bless you in all that you undertake in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

Lev 25
35 " 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. 36 Do not take interest of any kind from him, but fear your God, so that your countryman may continue to live among you. 37 You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit. 38 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God.

Exodus 22
22 "Do not take advantage of a widow or an orphan. 23 If you do and they cry out to me, I will certainly hear their cry. 24 My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives will become widows and your children fatherless.
25 "If you lend money to one of my people among you who is needy, do not be like a moneylender; charge him no interest. 26 If you take your neighbor’s cloak as a pledge, return it to him by sunset, 27 because his cloak is the only covering he has for his body. What else will he sleep in? When he cries out to me, I will hear, for I am compassionate.

Matthew 25
14"For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants[c] and entrusted to them his property. 15To one he gave five talents,[d] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26But his master answered him, 'You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed and gather where I scattered no seed? 27Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
**
The texts that forbid usury have to do with personal greed, taking advantage of the poor and excessive interrest to a fellow Jewish persons. One can charge interest on a loan, if it is not done out of greed and it does not take advantage of those who can not affoard the loan in the first place.
**
Jewish law has addressed proper and improper usury here:
jlaw.com/Articles/

all the texts on usury
tentmaker.org/lists/UsuryScriptureList.html

Proof text theology like we see with Give simply does not give a clear picture of what scripture really teaches.


#15

Eze 18: 8 He does not lend at usury or take excessive interest. NIV


#16

Do you deliberately commit sin?

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

Hooo, boy, here we go again!!!


#17

If I follow the verse in Ezekiel, do I have to follow all the OT moral commands?.

Deut 21:18-21 states that If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to his father and mother, and will not obey them even though they chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city where they shall say to those city offenders, "This son of ours is a stubborn and unruly fellow who will not listen to us; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all his fellow citizens shall STONE him to death.

Deut 22: 13-21 I won’t type the whole thing but it says that if a man decides to bring a charge against his bride of not being a virgin he can bring her before the elders of the city. If the parents can not produce proof of her virginity-blood on a cloth-then she will be stoned to death. If the man is incorrect then he gets to pay a large fine to the girl’s father.

Deut 22:23-27 says that if a man comes upon a betrothed maiden and has sex with her in the city but she doesn’t cry out then both will be stoned. If they are in an open field and there is no help nearby then it will be assumed that no one would here the girl anyway, then the man alone will die.

Leviticus 19:19Keep my statutes do not breed any of your domestic animals with others of a different species; do not sow a field of yours with two different types of seed. and do not put on a garment woven with two different fabrics.

Leviticus 19:26 Do not eat meat with the blood still in it

There are more OT laws that we no longer keep but my fingers are giving out.


#18

[quote=Daniel Marsh]Deuteronomy 23:20 (English Standard Version)
You may charge a foreigner interest, but you may not charge your brother interest, that the LORD your God may bless you in all that you undertake in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

Lev 25
35 " 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. 36 Do not take interest of any kind from him, but fear your God, so that your countryman may continue to live among you. 37 You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit. 38 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God.

Exodus 22
22 "Do not take advantage of a widow or an orphan. 23 If you do and they cry out to me, I will certainly hear their cry. 24 My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives will become widows and your children fatherless.
25 "If you lend money to one of my people among you who is needy, do not be like a moneylender; charge him no interest. 26 If you take your neighbor’s cloak as a pledge, return it to him by sunset, 27 because his cloak is the only covering he has for his body. What else will he sleep in? When he cries out to me, I will hear, for I am compassionate.

Matthew 25
14"For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants[c] and entrusted to them his property. 15To one he gave five talents,[d] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26But his master answered him, 'You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed and gather where I scattered no seed? 27Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
**
The texts that forbid usury have to do with personal greed, taking advantage of the poor and excessive interrest to a fellow Jewish persons. One can charge interest on a loan, if it is not done out of greed and it does not take advantage of those who can not affoard the loan in the first place.
**
Jewish law has addressed proper and improper usury here:
jlaw.com/Articles/

all the texts on usury
tentmaker.org/lists/UsuryScriptureList.html

Proof text theology like we see with Give simply does not give a clear picture of what scripture really teaches.
[/quote]

Your post used almost all Old Testament Scriptures and your interpretation of them, and the one New Testament Scripture was a parable, which Jesus used for those who wouldn’t believe.

Jesus came to complete the Old Law and His completion of usury is: (Luke 6:35) “Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return. You will have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.”

We are not only, never to charge interest, we are not even to expect any return at all.


#19

[quote=Giver]Your post used almost all Old Testament Scriptures and your interpretation of them, and the one New Testament Scripture was a parable, which Jesus used for those who wouldn’t believe.

Jesus came to complete the Old Law and His completion of usury is: (Luke 6:35) “Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return. You will have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.”

We are not only, never to charge interest, we are not even to expect any return at all.
[/quote]

Perhaps it is worth considering the dilemma of the rich young man who came up to Jesus and asked about the path to life. Jesus’s first response was that he should keep the commandments. Clearly there is life to be found in keeping the commandments, even if you are rich.

Then, because the young man asks for more, Jesus offers an additional invitation. To give up everything and follow him.

There is a fullness of life that can be found by renouncing ones earthly possessions. It doesn’t mean necessarily that one can’t have a savings account with their name attached to it but it means that if you went there and found the savings account empty that you would be able to accept it.

So, leave behind everything and go from town to town, accepting food that people offer, and saying “The reign of God is at hand.” (The better you understand that phrase, the easier it is to do that.)

Why not?

peace

Jim


#20

Hey Giver, that’s such a tiny Bible you use :smiley: I want one of those, where can I obtain one ?

Hebrews and a few other quotes thrown in, it’s ingenious, even the Sunday messenger has more information.

Oh by the way, did we tell you Hebrews is about Apostasy ? :wink:


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.