John 16:12 - what did Jesus mean?


#1

John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear”

What was Jesus talking about? What is this information that we can not bear or handle?

Has this information been conveyed to us since the time of Jesus or are we still waiting to hear it?

If we still have not received this information, can we handle it now? Are we ready to ‘bear’ it now?

Or was he just hesitating to tell them that he was near his death - that was all it was and there is nothing really new that he has to say to us.


#2

[quote=CCC 66] Yet even if Revelation in already complete, it had not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the coarse of the centuries.
[/quote]

Jesus was saying we don’t have to learn it all at once, the Holy Spirit will help us along.


#3

Right, it could include all sorts of things that the Holy Spirit has brought (or will bring) to our understanding over time.

I suspect the OP is right that a goodly bit of what He meant there involved the necessity and full significance of His death, though. That seems like the sort of thing the Apostles would not have found it easy to bear. Indeed, when He does mention His fate in other passages, they frequently either fail to understand or strenuously object.

Usagi


#4

It is the Holy Spirit who makes fully understood the truth revealed by Christ. “Our Lord completed and perfected Revelation and confirmed it…finally by sending the Spirit of Truth.” Vat. II, Dei Verbum, 4. Commentary in the Navarre Bible.


#5

Keep in mind that the whole discourse, from chapter 13 through chapter 17, was addressed to the twelve Apostles alone. Jesus was not speaking to the crowds or to the Jews but to “The Twelve” only.

This Jesus speaking to the leadership of His Church. The Holy Spirit will guide the Church into all truth.

-Tim-


#6

John 16:12** Is directly to and exclusively to His Apostles** as is Mk 16:14-15 & Mt.28:16-20

John 16: 13-15" [13] But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you. [14] He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you. [15] All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you.

Your question speaks to just why Christ Choose to establish just One Church with One Faith Eph. 4: 1-7

Because with JUST One right choice we’d know where to go to find the FULLNESS of His Truth which must be singular per defined issue:thumbsup:

God Bless you, and thanks for asking,

Patrick


#7

I still don’t see what devastating knowledge the Holy Spirit has brought to us (or to the Church) which we could not have borne earlier when Jesus was around. It seems to me, the knowledge is still to be revealed?


#8

Jesus was telling His disciples that they will learn more and He will share more with them. It’s another foretelling of the coming Holy Spirit.

In the book of Acts the Holy Spirit comes and the disciples are then able to speak other languages and have obtained more knowledge. They know enough to share and spread the Gospel, the Holy Spirit gives them insights and the courage to go forward and continue to be true to Christ and share the gospel even in dangerous areas.

This is an attribute of the Holy Spirit and He stays with us and moves especially through the Catholic Church keeping the mother church safe and true to God.

SIDE NOTE:
Islam would say the foretelling’s of the Holy Spirit was to be the coming of their prophet but the foretelling’s were for the disciples and for their lifetime. Islam’s prophet came 600 years to late.


#9

Sure, the speaking in tongues was miraculous. But what new knowledge did it produce? None that I can point to. We don’t know anything more than when Jesus was around.

Islam did not bring any new knowledge either - nothing much deeper or more inspiring than what Jesus had already taught us.


#10

Does it not take knowledge to speak another language?


#11

It is not new knowledge, to speak somebody else’s language. It is not knowledge at all, just an accomplishment.

When Jesus said “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.”, did he mean he would like to talk in some other, different language?

I think he was saying he had something new to tell, but we were not ready or mature enough to handle it.


#12

Sadly you are not able to understand the point.

Yes, it does take knowledge to know another language and yes it is an accomplishment but only when one obtains the knowledge.

Jesus share with His disciples all the knowledge we have in the Bible and more to be passed on through the church.

Even at the end of the gospel of John it says that there wouldn’t be enough books to contain all that Jesus taught.

Jesus did tell His disciples they would suffer for His name sake, and Jesus taught a lot to them after His resurrection.

If you want to answer your question 'what did he teach them" then read all the new testament because that is the answer.


#13

What truths Jesus did not think the Apostles could bear before his death were revealed to them during their lifetime after his resurrection either by the risen Jesus himself or by the Holy Spirit. Since the death of the last Apostle, the Holy Spirit has guided and will continue to guide the Church to a fuller understanding of those revealed truths but we don’t expect any new elements of Christian revelation because “the faith … was delivered once for all to the saints.” (Jude 3)

The commentary on John 16:12-15 in A Commentary on the New Testament, prepared by the Catholic Biblical Association in 1942, supplemental commentary to the Confraternity Edition of the New Testament, might be worth checking out, here.


#14

=openmind77;12977980]I still don’t see what devastating knowledge the Holy Spirit has brought to us (or to the Church) which we could not have borne earlier when Jesus was around. It seems to me, the knowledge is still to be revealed?

In a sense What we know today all came from when Jesus was around:)

John 14:26
But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you

John 15: 26-27
But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me. And you shall give testimony, because you are with me from the beginning.

John 16:13-15
" But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you. He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you. All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you."

So in this sense, God through Tradition, the bible and the Church
Christ does remain with us; as greatly evidenced through the Sacraments.

Matthew 28: 16-20
And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. [17] And seeing him they adored: but some doubted. [18] And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world:slight_smile:

God Bless you,

Patrick


#15

Yes, realize the belief is that the truths Jesus did not think the Apostles could bear before his death were revealed to them during their lifetime after his resurrection either by the risen Jesus himself or by the Holy Spirit.

I would just like an example of such a truth, in order to understand why the Apostles could not bear to hear it before. Because nothing the apostles have said after his death sounds like something that cannot be borne to be heard before his death


#16

Perhaps Jesus wanted to tell the Apostles more about the sufferings and martyrdom each of them was to experience for the faith. Certainly such information would be easier to hear coming from someone (Jesus) who had already experienced such suffering and death and who had been gloriously resurrected. For instance, after Jesus’ resurrection he indicated to Peter the sort of death by which he was to glorify God. (John 21:19)


#17

I guess that is possible. But ‘many things more to tell you’ really sounds to me something more substantive and important than the death of specific persons. It is more like some new revelation that we were not yet ready for.


#18

Jesus apparently didn’t explain fully the doctrine of the Trinity. He talked about the Father and the Son (Himself) and the Holy Spirit, but He did not sit down and give them a theology lecture about the inner life and relations of One God in Three Persons.

The Trinity makes people’s heads go all splodey even now. It’s a lot easier to go with unitarian and Arian ideas that smoosh all three Persons together, or downgrade one or two. (Of course, this also also makes Very Bad Things happen to your understanding of Christ, God, religion, humanity, etc. Take a look at Islam.)

So it was pretty obviously not something that Peter or Thomas were ready to study! Maybe John could have gotten it, but probably not right then. The Church needed a lot of help from the Holy Spirit, plus time to digest what Jesus said and to work out the implications.

There are probably a lot of other examples that people can think of. Anything that involved a lot of controversy in the early Church, for example.


#19

=openmind77;12978640]Yes, realize the belief is that the truths Jesus did not think the Apostles could bear before his death were revealed to them during their lifetime after his resurrection either by the risen Jesus himself or by the Holy Spirit.

I would just like an example of such a truth, in order to understand why the Apostles could not bear to hear it before. Because nothing the apostles have said after his death sounds like something that cannot be borne to be heard before his death

IMO you’re putting an incorrect understanding of the term “to bear”"

In this context it means to comprehend or to understand.

An example of this was the Resurrections. Despite multiple prophesies ; the Apostles did not comprehend what Christ would do in rising from the dead:

Mk.16:14-15
***At length he appeared to the eleven as they were at table: and he upbraided them with their incredulity and hardness of heart, because they did not believe them who had seen him after he was risen agai***n. And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

God Bless you!

Patrick


#20

In my opinion, he was telling us that the information we are given (the bible and other books) are just a very small part of a much larger puzzle, and we, as humans, cannot comprehend the ‘big picture’.

I have a feeling when we die, and we are able to understand all this, it will be a major eye opener, we will recognize how simple it all is, and wonder how we could have missed this during our lives. I think the majority of this information probably relates to ‘what’ God actually is, I mean, we know he is the creator of everything, but id say there is MUCH MUCH more to him (and the universe as a whole) than we think.


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