Pleasantly surprised by a sermon I’ve seen on TBN by John Hagee from his church. Very lovely testimony of Our Lady’s faith in God, unwavering fidelity even at the cross, he says her tears co-mingled with Christ’s blood on the ground- He called her the Blessed Virgin Mother of God. How lovely! I really was pleasantly surprised.
Anti-Catholics like Hagee, Jack Van Impe and other TBN hucksters use this tactic to lull Catholics to into believing that famous Sally Field speech: “you like me, you REALLY like me!!!”.
No they don’t. It is a deceptive tactic they use to convert Catholics.
I should know, I used to be one of these people.
I like to listen to John Hagee now and then, I’ve never heard him save anything anti-CathoIic but don’t listen to him regularly , I do agree one needs to be picky of the ones on TBN.
Remember when someone “gets it half right,” it also means they’re half wrong. While it’s a virtue to see an action such as Hagee’s as some type of overture, please let us not forget that Hagee and many of his persuasion consider it a badge of honor to sail their little ships of theological self righteousness in what they think is the vast sea of Roman Catholic heresy.
If John Hagee told me the sun had risen, I’d open the door and look outside. Back in my evangelical Protestant days I used to watch him from time to time, until I caught him in an egregious, totally unnecessary lie.
Umm, you know, Protestants don’t dislike Mary. She is highly revered in Protestantism.
There are simply objections to Catholic practices like praying for her intercession.
Since in my experience, protestants typically spit on statues of Mary and call her “nothing but a vessel”, if that is their definition of “highly revered”, it’s no wonder they think Catholics worship her.
I was a Protestant for almost 60 years, and I never ever saw anyone do that, heard of anyone doing that, or even heard of anyone recommending that someone else do that.
With statements like that on Catholic forums, it’s no wonder some Protestants think that Catholics hate them.
I hear about it all the time. There are even many videos on youtube you can watch where they do exactly that, and worse.
Me neither, but No intercession. :shrug: No St Michael, Gabriel etc? Where did they all go?
You know, I started to respond to the spitting claim, but decided it wasn’t worth the effort.
It is not uncommon to see displays or hear things similar in vulgarity as spitting. I used to do it myself. Jokes galore with the Blessed Virgin as the punchline. Nothing was off limits, even when it reached the level of outright blasphemy. Hatred of the Church is personified in hatred of Mary.
You would not believe the words I’ve, in the past, uttered against Mary. The hatred for Mary that ate at me. It was part and parcel of my Protestant identity. I really didn’t want to hear about Mary and the reason is because any real research on Mary, in the context of the times and how there were relics of Saints, etc, would lead to the realization of the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. The Assumption of Mary would only make sense in the context of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Pretty soon, you have to just accept Roman Catholicism. But the Protestant heart, if somewhat educated, knows the Catholic Church holds truth which is not available to anyone outside of the Church, which Protestants are. They don’t like that. They’re rebellious and divisible by their nature. However, I’ve never seen a church divide with the more traditional half breaking off. It’s always the ones wanting to move things “forward” in some manner. But they will never hearken back to tradition, and certainly not to the Catholic Church. Pretty soon it’s loosely based on Scripture but more so on the way that scripture makes them feel or how they can philosophically stroke their own egos in an attempt to manufacture a god of their choosing. They choose to circumvent the Church entirely in their explanation of doctrine. It’s quite literally the same style of rejection which Jews have used to reject the fulfillment of their entire religion in Christ. So much so, that the most radical of Protestant sects are fixated on Jewish feast days. While they may have some sort of significance, I’d say the feast days have more significance for the remaining Jewish people who have yet to accept Messiah.
If anything, the entire problem goes back not to sola scriptura, nor even Luther, for he actually believed in Marian doctrine entirely, but to the fact that most of Protestant Christianity is nothing more than a farce. It is essentially modern Gnosticism and various other levels of heresy which have already been dealt with. It’s crept in and no one gets it because there is no formal, tried and true process for clergy. Nor are there any real tests of doctrinal knowledge for other personnel which have large roles in their congregation. It’s very much a cult of personality with a facade of Christ. It’s literally become men in their mid-twenties who get up and ramble on about nothing actually doctrinal, often employing things such as rap music analogies, and other pop culture. If Mary were to be mentioned in such a style of modern sermons, it would be to provide an unexplored analogy of an unwed, expectant mother and how Jesus would love the person no matter their sin. Or something of the equally saccharine sort, a theological mess.
They don’t even get a good dose of “Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God” stuff anymore. That’s depressing man. Mary, when one removes from her the honor of contributing to the crushing of the serpent’s head, no longer has any real place in doctrine outside of being a mere vessel. I often wonder if the Blessed Virgin would get any air time at all in Protestant pulpits if it were not for Christmas and her inconvenient place in the whole matter. For those never daring to espouse one single word on Hell, yet calling themselves followers of Christ, who spoke more on Hell than anything else, why would such an important figure be mentioned?
For the more traditional Protestant denominations, it is often just glossed over. The virginity aspect prior to Christ being begotten is obviously not usually in question. Nor, really, is the question finding need of an answer in most Protestant doctrine dealing with Christology.
It is with a decreasingly heavy heart that I pray the Hail Mary.
Slowly, I am coming to love Mary, or rather, allowing myself to feel the love she has always provided.
But don’t be fooled by seemingly true praise of Mary by these people. There is simply no way they can face the truth of Mary without facing the falsity of their own beliefs about the Church.
If one truly hates the Catholic Church, it will be manifest in displays of hatred for Mary.
Edit to add:
Don’t base your defense against what I’ve said entirely on traditionally Protestant denominations, i.e. Lutherans, etc.
While those original rebels may have a cornered market on denominational names, they simply do not have the active numbers. They have a great appearance of presence, but, no real presence at all. What areas are truly active are generally the more liberal, open, and accepting type. By accepting, I don’t mean truly loving. If anything, their refusal to admonish sinners of sin is disdainful and totally NOT charitable. The numbers are mainly with the mega-church, and varied non-denominational. The average start up non-denominational church, generally associated with some non-authoritative conference, Bible school, or Bible camp, have the numbers. The smaller ones easily outnumber more established Catholic parishes in regard to attendance. Some of these may or may not identify with Baptists, depending on the geographical region. The old guard Baptist church is really dying and being replaced by the new style.
I hear this often on CAF that Protestants love spitting on Mary statues and disrespecting the mother of God. I must ask, what kind of Protestants are you hanging out with. You seem to be much more familiar about Protestants than I am. I must have never received the memo that I had to go out of my way to be disrespectful to the mother of my Lord and Savior.
What?!? I know many protestants, both family members and close friends. I have never, ever heard of anyone doing such a thing.
Just because some nut posts a YouTube video of someone acting stupid doesn’t mean…oh, never mind.
Being a two time loser Protestant, I must confess I never heard nor saw of any spitting on Mary. On the other hand, I heard a lot of ridicule and jokes, most if not all of it out of smug arrogance and ignorance. People believe what they want and from those who influence them. Once you get to reading about the Blessed Mother, well, she’s quite a wonderful ally to have on your side. The decision to inquire, study, hear the facts and the arguments is always up to us.
I believe we can put all that fanatical thinking behind… Does nothing but direct the problem to elsewhere. The issue is “intercession”.
But what of the intercession of the one who “All Generations will call Blessed” , the Saints? The Archangels, Michael, Gabriel, Raphael… No intercession?
Thy Will be Done!
From a Lutheran view:
1st, we are aware and believe that the Blessed Virgin and the saints in Heaven pray (intercede) for the Church Militant. They do this, not becuase of our prayers (requests) that they do so, but because of their love of Christ, and His Church, the congregation of believers.
2nd, there is not in scripture a command for us to invoke the saints in heaven, a promise regarding invocation, or a example of it (except perhaps 2 Macc.).
3rd, knowing well that the saints in Heaven do pray of us, there is nothing wrong with praying, “Hear their Prayers”, just as we say, “Hear our Prayers”. I. personally have done this regarding St. Peregrine, in response to my cancer diagnosis some 6 years ago.
I once heard this preacher on TBN or God TV or one of those channels- can’t remember. He a black preacher and the congregation was quite a big group too. Too bad I don’t know him so well- I don’t think he’s one of the big ones though, like TD Jakes or the one involved with the sex scandal (Eddie someone) It wasn’t a preacher I knew.
He was preaching about the Birth of Christ (It was not Christmas, though) and came upon the subject of Mary conceiving and giving birth a Virgin- clearly stressing that Christ had no earthly Father. Then he took a tangent and started speaking about “after” the birth of Christ and the fact that the Bible said (supposedly) that she did not remain a virgin after. Now, that’s kinda OK- I know most Protestants believe that our Lady had other children after Christ- his brethren. So no biggie. But the manner in which he continued to stress that point just made me sick.
He said something which I think was intended to make the congregation laugh, cheer or make those shouts like when someone gives a really good word etc. He said that he just had to tell the Catholics that while the Holy Spirit came upon Mary- That wasn’t the only thing that ever “came upon” her. Then, grinning in a manner almost like a stand-up comic, he said that Joseph definitely “came upon” her for sure…something to that effect. And the congregation was laughing, cheering as if he had just given “a word”. I just switched the channels immediately.
Sometimes the manner in which some people express their rejection of Catholic doctrines on Mary is such that for a catholic it’s the most disrespectful thing. One figures you can just say Mary and Joseph had children after Christ- I’ve heard it expressed and argued very respectfully- But some honestly come very close to Blasphemy.
That man you saw on TV would have repulsed me, too. Whatever the exact nature of the relationship was between Mary and Joseph after Jesus birth, his crudely expressed opinion was out of line.
Besides YouTube, can you describe where you get your experience with Protestants?