John Paul II: "Have nothing to do with the dragon."


#1

Dear Fellow Forumners,

During his last eartly visit to Fatima, (for the beatification of the little shepherds) **John Paul II **left us with this final fatherly warning: *"The message of Fátima is a call to conversion, alerting humanity to have nothing to do with the ‘dragon’ whose ‘tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth’" * (Fatima May 13, 2000)

This was his final message from Fatima, a mystery he understood very well. Are we taking him seriously?

One quick look at our current TV guide reflects how seriously our culture is responding to the warning. Our children no longer watch Bambi on the tube but:
“Dragon Tales”
"Dragon Boy"
Many others
Some animated popular movies, now portray a dragon as a cute non threatenning talking pet, making our children learn to love them. Our American teenage culture has fallen in love with the oriental art of combat which glorifies the use of clothing and paraphernalia with the image of the dragon.

Could this lead to something spiritually dangerous for our culture?

Are we taking the Pope’s final message from Fatima “alerting humanity” seriously?

Just pondering :confused:

To Jesus through Mary :thumbsup:

Edward Henry


#2

Perhaps your being a bit to literal?


#3

Hi Cyberwolf,

Perhaps your being a bit to literal?

Perhaps.

But I believe that Saint John the evangelist was clearly using the term dragon to give us a warning:

"And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars… And there was seen another sign in heaven. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and on his heads seven diadems… And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered: that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son… And her son was taken up to God and to his throne… And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Revelation 12: 1-17)

http://bp1.blogger.com/dxMwleDsNcY/SA9GafufoyI/AAAAAAAABpU/4eLxqb_TyXI/s1600/y1puNg-7imvIU.jpg

God uses symbolic language in the Bible to talk to us, and John Paul also used that symbolism to give us a warning. I hope that you are right, and that our culture is not merely being desensitized.

Thanks for your response.:slight_smile:

To Jesus through Mary :thumbsup:

Edward Henry


#4

I really think that our western culture is in danger, however I don’t think that the use of the word “dragon” is necessarily the danger. People are having something “to do with the dragon” (Satan) whenever they choose to sin - in whatever capacity rather than do what they “know” in their hearts is right. Many people tend to believe, more and more against the knowledge in their hearts, that there is no such thing as sin or hell or the devil.
Now, there would be somewhat of a problem with some of the cartoons, etc. you mention if, because of them, young children tend to poo-poo the devil and so learn (wrongly) that Scripture doesn’t really give any Truth or only what the culture says it does - secular humanism. Usually, I think that what is learned by them through the role-modelling of their parents and schoolteachers has much more impact.

At least that’s my :twocents:


#5

think that our western culture is in danger

:thumbsup:


#6

The dragon is one of many terms used to describe Satan, and furthermore, it being an evil concept is only one culture’s view.

The East regards the dragon to be a sign of luck, to be a good creature. But then, their idea of a dragon is vastly different from say a Nordic idea of a dragon.

A dragon in the Scriptural sense means something that is wholly fantastic and cannot be intrinsically understood and thus beaten. If it were a dog, we could defeat Satan because we know what a dog is, what it looks like and thus how to get rid of it. But a dragon is a creature of mystery, and we are thus not strong enough to defeat the Evil One, because our minds are too small.

So when Scripture says it is a big red dragon with many heads, horns and stuff, it is not the ‘dragon’ part that makes it evil. It is everything as a whole that makes it evil. The red signifies blood and danger, many heads, horns, well personally I think that goes without saying.

The Eastern tradition of the dragon cannot apply here, because what we must remember is that Revelation’s author did not know of the Eastern tradition, and that symbolism is very much limited to the culture that the author is from and is presenting it to. This means that if in our culture, a bunny is evil, then Revelation would contain a big red BUNNY.


#7

This means that if in our culture, a bunny is evil, then Revelation would contain a big red BUNNY.

You mean like this, only white?


#8

ooo yes!


#9

If it were a dog, we could defeat Satan because we know what a dog is, what it looks like and thus how to get rid of it. But a dragon is a creature of mystery, and we are thus not strong enough to defeat the Evil One, because our minds are too small.

Good points.:slight_smile: Now the question remains. How serious does God take His symbolism? When Saint John wrote the Apocalypse, he could have chosen a beast more familiar to his contemporary Jews, i.e.: a bear, an alligator, a tiger, etc. Any of these symbols would have been easier for the Jews of the time than a beast they most likely had never seen, for they obviously had no access to television or electronic media. Yet, the symbol of the evil one that St John saw, was *“a dragon.” *

According to the Book of Revelation, St. John did not use any other symbolism because it was not his choice. It was a divine vision revealed by God himself, and God did not show him a bear, or an alligator, HE clearly showed him a dragon. A dragon that would attack humanity, he would go after the children of the Woman, " those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

The Almighty Wisdom of God could clearly see ahead to these present times. He could clearly see that there would be civilizations honoring the image of the dragon, and that we might worry about being “too literal.” Yet, that was his warning to future generations. To our generations… Are we risking not taking Him seriously?

How Christian-oriented are usually the philosophies of the sports, cartoons, music groups, or civilizations behind the symbol of the dragon which are becoming very popular in our culture? :confused: How many instead, are choosing to wear and stand behind the symbol of "The Woman."? :o
http://bp1.blogger.com/dxMwleDsNcY/SA9GafufoyI/AAAAAAAABpU/4eLxqb_TyXI/s320/y1puNg-7imvIU.jpg
I wonder if God is watching and waiting to find out.

Just pondering.:slight_smile:

To Jesus through Mary :thumbsup:

Edward Henry


#10

Just an aside - where did you get that wonderful picture of Our Lady of Guadelupe holding the Infant Jesus away from the dragon? I love it!

Back on topic, it seems to my little brain that He may have chosen the image of the dragon because it was a smooth transition from the serpent in the garden so people reading His Word wouldn’t mistake the stealth and sneakiness (and unexpectedness) of the devil. He may have chosen a dragon because it was a creature of myth and most people/nobody had ever seen one. People were so inclined toward animal idolatry that using an animal that was commonly known may very well have sparked a feeling about that certain animal that had nothing to do with what He was really trying to say. It may well have been used to avoid being taken too literally.

Again, just my :twocents:


#11

Hi Brigid,

Where did you get that wonderful picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe holding the Infant Jesus away from the dragon? I love it!

You might find it: Here
http://bp3.blogger.com/_zp78xs6Kqpw/R35XoiohBXI/AAAAAAAACVo/MT7mRXCiObU/s1600/z_lourdes_berardita.gif
I can tell you have devotion to Our Lady of Lourdes. You might find some images of her there too.

Thanks for your response:)

To Jesus through Mary :thumbsup:

Edward Henry


#12

I don’t think so.

I’ve seen the same trend that Edward is talking about on other channels and programs.

Example: the Sci-Fi channel has been airing a bulk of movies that deal with dragons, giant snakes, griffins, reptilian aliens, …it seems like a parade of humanized reptilians.

Other movie channels seem to be following suit. Even big screen movies about giant snakes with sequel after sequel of the same reptilian ****.


#13

mangy dog Quote:

[quote]Perhaps your being a bit to literal?

I don’t think so.

I’ve seen the same trend that Edward is talking about on other channels and programs
[/quote]

.
Thank you for your response. Your post made me make a quick two day search for the word *“Dragon” *on my DishChannel Guide. These were the results:

Aug 5 - Aug 7
Toon Disney: *“American Dragon” *(Children) 8/5
NTGEO: The Real Dragon Emperor 8/5
**Starz Black: ** “Dungeons & Dragons”
Cartoon Channel: *“Yu-Gi-Oh!: Unleashing the Dragon” * (Children) 8/6
PBS: *“Dragon Tales” * (Children) 8/6
**HBO-E: ** * “Eragon” *Discovery of a Dragon’s egg."
Toon Disney: “American Dragon” (Children) 8/6
Disney: *The Little Mermaid: *“Message in a bottle… written by a lonely dragon.” 8/7
Cartoon Channel: *“Yu-Gi-Oh!: Unleashing the Dragon: Part II” * (Children) 8/7
History Channel I.: *“The Dragon’s Ascent” * 8/7
OVATN: *“Dragon Songs.” * 8/7
BBC: *Dragon’s Den. * 8/7
PBS: *“Dragon Tales” *(Children) 8/7
**DIY: ** The Carol Dubai Show “Bull’s-Eye Winged Dragon” 8/7
**ION: ** “Jane and the Dragon” * (Children) 8/8
SLTH: * “Red Dragon”
8/8
**TDIS (Disney): ** *Legend of the Dragon * (Children) (7:00 AM) 8/10

This was **only a two-day search! **Pretty revealing isn’t it? Pretty soon our children will prefer to decorate their rooms with *little dragons *and not with “Bambi”'s or bunnies anymore. I pray their concept of Christianity does not suffer with the change.

John Paul II’s fatherly prophetic warning from Fatima continues to puzzle me: http://www.michaeljournal.org/images/Jp2-25.jpg
"Have nothing to do with the dragon."

I pray this makes sense

To Jesus through Mary :thumbsup:

Edward Henry


#14

Maybe you got a point…

But then again it could just be because reptilians make for popular villains. You had stories of dragons, griffins and such all during the middle ages.


#15

Well, a lot of animation is coming out of Japan, Korea, etc. and as another poster mentioned, there is a long tradition in Asia where dragons are ‘good luck’ figures. A lot of the programs about dragons feature Asian characters, (or have Asian writers and animators) and a lot of the stories are based on old tales often ‘contemporized’.

Some of them are perfectly fine. . .the dragon playing the ‘genie’ role, or the ‘fairy godmother’ role of Arabic or European folklore. . .or specifically Asian tales of fantasy where the dragon is only one of many ‘mythic’ beings. . .some have the dragons as ‘funny’ characters (think Mu-Shu in Mulan), some as ‘scary’ characters, some are anthropormorphized, some are ‘evil’ but usually opposed by other dragons who are ‘good’, etc.

I think myself it is a ‘fad’ of sorts. Asian art, culture etc. have been riding various waves of popularity for the last 20 years. Before that there was the "Afrocentric’ wave (my daughter’s 1970s classmates–male–were all white but the majority of them had their hair teased into large ‘Afro-styles’ and many of the kids wore ‘kente’ cloth, collected masks, wore leopard print, etc. ) It wore out but every now and then there will be something that ‘pops out’ for a season (like the ubiquitous leopard print!)

About 10-15 years ago in a lot of the country ‘Southwest’ shamanism type stuff became widely popular --‘animal spirit guides, totem stones, ‘the Great Spirit’ etc.’ That has passed off in the East but it’s still popular in the Southwest. And look for example at the latest kids’ programming on Disney which is heavily focused on 'Hispanic" --Dora the Explorer, Handy Manny–full of Spanish phrases, Spanish practices etc.

I would certainly be as watchful as I normally am of all TV/media and ‘trends’ --there is a lot of dreck out there, but a lot of good too.


#16

Yes but, in the middle ages it would’ve been something localized, …a town or a people.

Nowadays, its mass media.


#17

i just went to the dish network site and did two searches:

LOVE - returned 90 results

DRAGON - returned 20 results


#18

dang71

i just went to the dish network site and did two searches:

LOVE - returned 90 results

DRAGON - returned 20 results

Good input. But you know how misused the word *“love” *is by our secular media ie: “For the love of money”, or “making love.” I just repeated your search and the first title was “I Love Money” on VH1.:rolleyes:

You probably should have tried “Jesus” or “God the Father”, and compare the results. That would have given you a clearer picture of the trend in the media.

Thank you for your response.:slight_smile:

To Jesus through Mary :thumbsup:

Edward Henry


#19

Thanks so much for the site - it has great pictures!

I think myself it is a ‘fad’ of sorts. Asian art, culture etc. have been riding various waves of popularity for the last 20 years. Before that there was the "Afrocentric’ wave (my daughter’s 1970s classmates–male–were all white but the majority of them had their hair teased into large ‘Afro-styles’ and many of the kids wore ‘kente’ cloth, collected masks, wore leopard print, etc. ) It wore out but every now and then there will be something that ‘pops out’ for a season (like the ubiquitous leopard print!)

I wore an “afro” and what with my red hair, my father said I looked like a rusty Brillo pad.:smiley:

Could it be a fad that is being taken advantage of by ____, working on one generation with “the devil doesn’t exist philosophy” and “there is no such thing as sin” then the next generation with making him cute and playful? One way or the other prayer to Our Lady and her Son is the best answer I can think of for the time being (along with getting more faithful Catholics/Christians into the media, et al).


#20

Well, I can think of three shows off the top of my head that I allow my kids to watch…Dragon Tales, Dragon, and Jane and the Dragon, the latter two which appear on QUBO–in the same block as Veggietales and 321 Penguins. Having viewed all of these shows with my kids I can tell you that the imagery of the dragon as portrayed in Revelation, as well as that in JP2’s warning have nothing to do with tv programing for children. Viewing an image of a dragon portrayed as something friendly and good, when it has the opposite meaning in scripture isn’t going to turn my kids into satanists. We as the parents are the ones who need to explain the difference to them. That doesn’t necessarily mean that we have to shelter them from every image that the bible used to represent evil. (Otherwise I’d have to shut off every nature program that talked about snakes, too, wouldn’t I?)


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