John the Baptist born without original sin??


#1

**I just read in a different post that the Catholic Church teaches that John the Baptist was born without original sin? Is that true?? Where in the world did that come from?? First Mary and now him! Could someone please provide me with a list of all those you believe were born without original sin? :banghead: **


#2

Mary, and of course, Christ.


#3

so not John the Baptist??


#4

No, not John the Baptist.


#5

Whew! What a relief! That was almost more than I can take! Not sure why someone posted that? It’s on a thread in the family forum. Anyhow, thanks! :slight_smile: CM


#6

Wait Wait Wait! I just went back to the original post where it was written and looked at the link (below) which clearly states that John the Baptist was born without original sin! (3rd paragraph) That is so very wrong! Why is that printed? Is this a Catholic teaching or just somebody with a wacky opinion? And if it IS a Catholic teaching I will repeat my original request: Will someone please provide me with a current list of all those you believe were born without original sin?? :banghead:

kensmen.com/catholic/cus…pentecost3.html


#7

Ok, obviously I didn’t move the web address correctly. If someone else could please move it so you’ll know what I’m talking about. It’s on the family forum site under the thread: Pregnant, baby may not live. Someone suggested they pray to John the Baptist as he was born without original sin and there’s a site refrenced.


#8

This is the teaching based on the occurance of Mary visiting Elizabeth after her conception of Jesus. The key phrase is “born without”. He was not conceived without original sin. The “Visitation” resulted in John’s “baptism” in the womb by the the presence of Jesus in Mary’s womb, which cleansed him from original sin.


#9

Here’s a thought. Ask for John the Baptist’s intercession. The Catholic Church teaches that he was born without original sin:

kensmen.com/catholic/cus…pentecost3.html

Quote:
Our Lord and Lady were both, of course, conceived without sin, but St. John the Baptist, though not conceived in this way, was filled with grace in the womb of his mother, the aged Elizabeth, and so was ***born ***without original sin. This is evident by his recognizing the Savior even in the womb, and by the Angel’s words to his father, the priest Zachary: Luke 1:13-15
But the angel said to him: Fear not, Zachary, for thy prayer is heard: and thy wife Elizabeth shall bear thee a son. And thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness: and many shall rejoice in his nativity. For he shall be great before the Lord and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, **even from his mother’s womb.
**


#10

Oh brother. I don’t even know what to say. Next you’ll be telling me that he also mediates all graces?!


#11

Carol Marie,

There were four people on Earth without the stain of original sin.

The first two were Adam and Eve. But they fell into sin, hence we have original sin ever since.

After the fall of Adam and Eve, there were only 2 descendents of Adam and Eve who did NOT have the stain of original sin on their souls. One was Mary, and the next one was Jesus. No other person has ever come into this world without the stain of original sin.


#12

It is not the official teaching of the Catholic Church that John the Baptist was conceived without original sin. Would you hold the Catholic Church responsible for every claim every web site whether or not it really is the teaching of the Catholic Church?

To be honest, I never knew that John the Baptist was “baptized in the womb” by the Holy Spirit. But there is a difference between being conceived without original sin, and having sin removed from our soul whether before birth or after.


#13

Hi tru dvotion, :slight_smile:

Then what’s up with the site? Is it junk?


#14

[quote=carol marie]Hi tru dvotion, :slight_smile:

Then what’s up with the site? Is it junk?
[/quote]

Give me a bit of time, I will check it out and let you know. I got into hot water already for not checking where some of the links I posted came from. This is the Internet Carol Marie. If one is not sure, don’t search far and wide. In my experience there is usually something of merit when it comes to a Christian site, but one has to know one’s faith first.


#15

This is the paragraph in question I presume:

“Our Lord and Lady were both, of course, conceived without sin, but St. John the Baptist, though not conceived in this way, was filled with grace in the womb of his mother, the aged Elizabeth, and so was *born *without original sin. This is evident by his recognizing the Savior even in the womb”

I am no authority on this subject, but I must say I am as surprised as you are at this explanation. This is why: The soul comes into being at conception and not after spending several months in the womb. All sorts of people have been anointed and filled with the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit did not remove the stain of original sin from their soul. What being filled means; the individual soul is being filled to capacity. I can accept the Baptist being baptized and confirmed inside Elisabeth’s womb, but I am very reluctant to accept this would have washed away the original sin which must have already been on the Baptist’s soul. You see, all the examples I brought up, Adam, Eve, Mary and Jesus were without original sin at the moment of their creation/conception. If the Baptist’s original sin would have been washed away, than the Holy Spirit would have washed away the original sin from the soul of every Old Testament prophet and Catholic saint as well. This makes virtually no sense to me. Unless I am corrected by someone with authority, real and not perceived, I will not accept this. I have seen this site and I will go to it for reference again, but for those, who are embarking on the journey toward the Catholic faith, I would not recommend it, unless as I said someone with real theological authority can explain it otherwise. As you see we are arguing back and forth, our faith is not cut and dry and it may seem overwhelming at first, but it does get easier.


#16

carol marie - why is it so hard to believe that God could do such a thing? it appears that this is not the case - that john was not born without original sin - but what if he was? is anything too hard for God?


#17

If John the Baptist was “baptised” inside Elizabeth’s womb, then his original sin would have been forgiven. That’s what baptism does.

If John’s pre-birth sanctification means he was regenerated in the womb, then that means that the original sin in which he was conceived was forgiven. That’s what regeneration does.

St. Thomas Aquinas taught that St. John the Baptist, as well as the prophet Jeremiah, were sanctified before they were born.

On the other hand, I don’t know if this is a definitive doctrine of the Church. It doesn’t seem incompatible with the deposit of faith.


#18

[quote=Vincent]If

John the Baptist was “baptised” inside Elizabeth’s womb, then his original sin would have been forgiven. That’s what baptism does.
True enough, but the tendency and the weakness for sin remains. We are talking apples and oranges here. Mary and Jesus were conceived without sin, and hence they never sinned. All of us baptized persons, who were conceived with original sin end up sinning, and we sin throughout our lifetime, baptism or no baptism.
[/quote]


#19

[quote=tru_dvotion]True enough, but the tendency and the weakness for sin remains.
[/quote]

Absolutely.

I don’t think anyone’s arguing that concupisence doesn’t persist if Original Sin is forgiven in the space between conception and birth.


#20

[quote=Vincent]Absolutely.

I don’t think anyone’s arguing that concupisence doesn’t persist if Original Sin is forgiven in the space between conception and birth.
[/quote]

In that case, the difference between John the Baptist would not have been born without original sin or not have been born with the tendency to sin is quite negligable. So if you are correct, then being born without original sin would not have been much different from any child who is baptized shortly after birth. But I was sloppy in my answer to carol marie. it should have red:

I can accept the Baptist being baptized and confirmed inside Elisabeth’s womb, but I am very reluctant to accept this would have washed away the tendency to sin, which would remain once original sin was on the Baptist’s soul. (At conception) Baptism and Confirmation does not eradicate the soul’s weakness for sin. You see, all the examples I brought up, Adam, Eve, Mary and Jesus were without original sin at the moment of their creation/conception. If the Baptist’s original sin would have been washed away with no traces of weakness for sin, than the Holy Spirit would have to have washed away the original sin from the soul of every Old Testament prophet and Catholic saint when they were filled with the Holy Spirit. (See David for example) This makes virtually no sense to me.


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