John the Baptist born without original sin


#1

My Father in law recently told me that he was taught by a Priest who told him that John the baptist was conceived WITH original sin but after leaping in Elizabeths womb when Mary (and Jesus) visited he was BORN with no original sin.The Priest also mentioned there were also some old testament figures who were also born without original sin.The priest said this comes from Sacred Tradition.
I always thought that Jesus and Mary were the only ones (other than Adam and Eve) who were BORN with original sin. Adam and Eve of course were not born as we are but an act of Creation.
Confused any ideas:confused:


#2

It would be more accurate to say John the Baptist was born in a state of Sanctifying Grace, having received the Holy Spirit in his mother’s womb.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit *removed *the stain of original sin from his soul just as baptism does for us today.


#3

Jesus and Mary were conceived without original sin.

John the Baptist was conceived with original sin but it was cleansed from him when Mary visited Martha and John reacted to the presence of the Lord.

I don’t know offhand other figures without original sin upon birth. Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without tasting death (as far as Scripture tells us), but it isn’t said they were free from original sin. God just had something different in mind for them.


#4

Adam and Eve were created without original sin.


#5

Well, yes, they’re excluded because they were around before original sin. I was referring to births.


#6

Your Father in law is correct. I once wrote an article on Mary and said that she was the only person other than Christ born without Original sin. I meant to say Conceived without Original sin, no one ever mentioned the error. I noticed it several months later and corrected it myself in another article.


#7

Since Catholics teach that to be filled with the Holy Spirit, you must be without sin (or original sin). This is where we get the Tradition about John the Baptist.


#8

i have been stuck or puzzled on something about this myself. Something I am confused about is how ‘original sin’ and ‘concupiscence’ relate to one another.

Even though original sin is removed from our souls through baptism, we are still left with concupiscence which is a tendency to sin.

I don’t get it.

i believe that mary jesus adam and eve were born without original sin and possibly without concupiscence. I believe that st john the baptist’s original sin was also removed at the visitation of Mary. but what about concupisence? was that removed from him too?

is concupisence and original sin the same thing? or are they different?

were adam and eve created with concupisence or is this what they inherited when they ate the bad fruit of knowledge of good and evil?


#9

Concupiscence is the stain left behind after the removal of original sin. It’s the tendency to fall back into sin.

Think of Original Sin as a hot coal in your soul. Even when removed, there are still scars and scorch marks, which would be concupiscence, maybe?

John the Baptist would still have been hampered with Concupiscence IMO, but Mary wouldn’t have been. She could still be tempted (as Jesus demonstrated in the desert and the Garden) but she would have been somewhat more resilient to sin.


#10

yeah…because even though baptism cleanses original sin and removes all actual sin up to that point…baptism cannot remove original sin’s temporal consequences…which are the scars left behind by original sin after its removal…these temporal consequences are pain, death, and disease since because of Adam and Eve’s sin we are no longer possessed of immortal bodies and also because of Adam and Eve’s original sin we have the capacity to commit actual sins of our own free will

it is because of the damage original sin leaves behind that our journey to Heaven is a perilous one…containing many stumbling blocks of Lucifer’s making…when Adam and Eve disobeyed God…sin entered the world and thus closed the Gates of Heaven and also lined the path to those gates with stumbling blocks…Christ’s sacrifice opened the Gates again…but the stumbling blocks still remain as a reminder that because of Adam and Eve…Lucifer has real power…real power to turn us away from God’s unconditional and eternal love and blind us to His truth and that one false move…and reminds us that if you look away from God for even a second can cause you to trip over one of these stumbling blocks and fall flat on your face (or backside if travelling backwards :P)


#11

I believe If his mother did not have original sin, then neither did He.. It's a matter of Grace, If they are highly favored of the Lord, and The Lord knew some before we they were in the wound, It would be fair to say that they were "angels" before they became human. So If God wanted one of us to ascend as Elijah & Mary did, then He can do so as He pleased, Because we were from the Lord from the beginning.

Hebrews13:2 Donot forget to entertain strangers, for by doing so, some have unwittingly entertained angels...

ps. Please correct me If I am mistakened.. thank you.


#12

Baptism entirely wipes away original sin. Those persons conceived with original sin, after Baptism, still retain concupiscence, which is not original sin itself, but an effect of original sin. So all the baptized are free from original sin itself.

There is no teaching in the Catholic Faith that John the Baptist was free from concupiscence, or that after birth he was the same as the Virgin Mary in the sense of being without any effects at all of original sin.

Scripture indicates that John the Baptist had concupiscence, which obscures the mind and heart. For even after John had baptized Jesus, he still was confused to a certain extent as to who Jesus is.

[Matthew 11]
{11:1} And it happened that, when Jesus had completed instructing his twelve disciples, he went away from there in order to teach and to preach in their cities.
{11:2} Now when John had heard, in prison, about the works of Christ, sending two of his disciples, he said to him,
{11:3} “Are you he who is to come, or should we expect another?”


#13

[quote="SpiritinMe, post:11, topic:79083"]
I believe If his mother did not have original sin, then neither did He.. It's a matter of Grace, If they are highly favored of the Lord, and The Lord knew some before we they were in the wound, It would be fair to say that they were "angels" before they became human. So If God wanted one of us to ascend as Elijah & Mary did, then He can do so as He pleased, Because we were from the Lord from the beginning.

Hebrews13:2 Donot forget to entertain strangers, for by doing so, some have unwittingly entertained angels...

ps. Please correct me If I am mistakened.. thank you.

[/quote]

This is Way out in left field.


#14

[quote="Ron_Conte, post:12, topic:79083"]
Baptism entirely wipes away original sin. Those persons conceived with original sin, after Baptism, still retain concupiscence, which is not original sin itself, but an effect of original sin. So all the baptized are free from original sin itself.

There is no teaching in the Catholic Faith that John the Baptist was free from concupiscence, or that after birth he was the same as the Virgin Mary in the sense of being without any effects at all of original sin.

Scripture indicates that John the Baptist had concupiscence, which obscures the mind and heart. For even after John had baptized Jesus, he still was confused to a certain extent as to who Jesus is.

[Matthew 11]
{11:1} And it happened that, when Jesus had completed instructing his twelve disciples, he went away from there in order to teach and to preach in their cities.
{11:2} Now when John had heard, in prison, about the works of Christ, sending two of his disciples, he said to him,
{11:3} “Are you he who is to come, or should we expect another?”

[/quote]

Are you sure John was confused, or was he letting his disciples come to know Jesus. In my opinion, John may be acting on his own words, "He must increase and I must decrease".


#15

[quote="NotWorthy, post:7, topic:79083"]
Since Catholics teach that to be filled with the Holy Spirit, you must be without sin (or original sin). This is where we get the Tradition about John the Baptist.

[/quote]

I was told that he received Sanctifying Grace when He stired in his Mother's womb when the Blessed Mother entered Elizabeth's house.


#16

So basically what you are saying is: St John the Baptist was conceived in sin. When our Blessed Mother came to visit Elizabeth John was cleansed of original sin (like baptism) and therefor was born without original sin?

Confusing! :confused:


#17

[quote="robin_hood, post:1, topic:79083"]
My Father in law recently told me that he was taught by a Priest who told him that John the baptist was conceived WITH original sin but after leaping in Elizabeths womb when Mary (and Jesus) visited he was BORN with no original sin.The Priest also mentioned there were also some old testament figures who were also born without original sin.The priest said this comes from Sacred Tradition.
I always thought that Jesus and Mary were the only ones (other than Adam and Eve) who were BORN with original sin. Adam and Eve of course were not born as we are but an act of Creation.
Confused any ideas:confused:

[/quote]

Some people do contend that St. John the Baptist, the prophet Jeremiah, etc. were sanctified in the womb and had their original sin wiped away. However, I do not know of a single binding teaching that actually compells us to believe this.

I also find it unlikely to be true, since Christ himself referred to St. John the Baptist as if he were not yet in the kingdom of heaven while St. John was yet living (Matt. chapter 11 verse 11). If St. John was born without original sin, and retained his state of grace throughout his life, in order to be named amongst those in the Beatific Vision, then while he was living he would have been amongst those in the kingdom of heaven.

That's merely my two cents.

The Holy Mother of God was not only born without original sin, she was free from original sin from the very first instant of her conception. Our Lord, whose humanity was from the substance of his mother, could not possibly be conceived in original sin since he had no earthly biological father to pass the original sin on to him.

-- Nicole


#18

My church does not believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary. However, it believes that at the point she agreed to be the mother of Christ, she was instantly cleansed from original sin.


#19

[quote="jrgiancola, post:18, topic:79083"]
My church does not believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary. However, it believes that at the point she agreed to be the mother of Christ, she was instantly cleansed from original sin.

[/quote]

The only problem with this thinking, in my opinion, is that Mary is already fully graced ("Kecharitomone") prior to saying, "Let it be done to me as thou said". Even the word itself indicates a prior gracing.


#20

[quote="yablabo, post:17, topic:79083"]

I also find it unlikely to be true, since Christ himself referred to St. John the Baptist as if he were not yet in the kingdom of heaven while St. John was yet living (Matt. chapter 11 verse 11). If St. John was born without original sin, and retained his state of grace throughout his life, in order to be named amongst those in the Beatific Vision, then while he was living he would have been amongst those in the kingdom of heaven.

That's merely my two cents.

[/quote]

But I don't know of a Church teaching that claims he "retained his state of grace". He could be born sinless, which would place him on par with a Christian today at Baptism. But without the continued Graces, such as those received in Communion, John didn't stay in a state of Grace.


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