Judas and the kiss of death?


#1

I saw a thread here that talked about if Judas was really in control of what he was about to do. But it reminded me of another questions while I was reading the Bible.

What was the point of Judas betraying Jesus? Jesus said if the Pharisees really wanted him they had all those chances. They could have followed him and got him at any time. If I remember there was something about a betrayal for silver prophecy, but I still dont know why it was even necessary.

Also what was the point of a kiss? He couldnt just point at him? Why didnt Peter take a swing a Judas instead of the other guy?

It might just be me, but what was the reason for breaking up the original 12? This just bothers me, something about the original twelve not being able to stick it out, and retain that special number. When they picked up Barnabas I dont even see how he is one of the 12? He missed out on all the important and behind the scenes stuff? Sure he can be a help, but not one of the chosen

I probably misunderstood something important here, but thats why I ask!


#2

Judas as puzzled me also.

 We have in OT a scenerio that must play out in the future. This is a wish that a Savior will die on the cross has a result of a betrayal. On the other hand we have the free will of every person to consider. It follows then that if we wish to have a coin toss in the decision making process, then the desire can only be a probability that he can be betrayed, that PERHAPS a Judas will choose to betray him. Our conclusion is that someone, anyone, had to be a Judas in order for events to unfold has commanded. Someone had to be the patsy. So one should give second thought to Judas's predicament. If Judas had not chosen correctly, that would have necessitated the betrayal ball be passed to someone else.

 Reverting back to the event in question, then it is just has probable that at the last supper Judas decides to forget about the whole thing and accept a job offer elsewhere. 

… and incedently, it is curious that Satan didn’t realize that in order to prevent man from being saved in the first place, all he had to do was call off his demons and take an extended vacation until after passover. No energy expenditure whatsoever. From Satan’s point of view, this delema was actually a non-delema on his part, all he had to do is nothing and everyone has a good day, and Jesus gets to live, and we all get to die in the Christian sense.

..... Which  further leads us to questions about the super intelligence of Satan, etc,etc ad infinitum.

Paradoxes abound, and we go on forever but it should be remembered that mysteries are part and parcel of our religion, and that all will become clear and acceptable as part of our reward.  I find my religion fascinating and mysterious.

Andy

#3

I think Judas had free will like all other humans at the time. He chose to do what he did. The fact that the Lord saw it coming only proves that he is the Lord. I used to feel that perhaps Judas got a bad hand dealt to him in all of this. In all reality he was free to choose the reverse at any time. The objective of Christ being crucified could have been accomplished with or without Judas betraying him. I feel bad for Judas but he chose what he chose. It all seems to point towards the fact that we have free will and God has all knowledge at the same time unlike us.

-D


#4

I think It’s important to contrast Judas with Peter. Both betrayed Jesus. Peter, however, repented of his own free will, while Judas did not. We see what happened to each one respectively. I’ve always wondered what would have happened if Judas indeed did repent (although I imagine that would be a topic for another thread).

One scenario has always stuck with me after hearing it (I believe it was Frank Sheed who posited it): If Judas, heading out of Jerusalem to hang himself had turned left instead of right, he would have encountered our Lord’s procession to Calvary. What might have happened if he did end up along the way of the cross? Perhaps he is the best and most literal example of “turning away from God”…


#5

[quote=Catholic Dude]It might just be me, but what was the reason for breaking up the original 12? This just bothers me, something about the original twelve not being able to stick it out, and retain that special number. When they picked up Barnabas I dont even see how he is one of the 12? He missed out on all the important and behind the scenes stuff? Sure he can be a help, but not one of the chosen

I probably misunderstood something important here, but thats why I ask!
[/quote]

Acts clearly states that two of the original (about 120) disciples who along with the 12 had been followers and witnesses of Jesus throughout his earthly ministry (although not present at the Last Supper) were chosen and lots cast to allow the Holy Spirit choose the one who was supposed to replace Judas and take his place among the 12. It is licit and valid, and is the consecration by apostolic authority of the first new bishop, the first exercise of that authority granted to the original apostles by Jesus, the basis of apostolic succession to this day.


#6

The election of Matthias is particularly important. It shows that the Church was even then a living organization with power to propagate itself.


#7

[quote=Darrel]I think Judas had free will like all other humans at the time. He chose to do what he did. The fact that the Lord saw it coming only proves that he is the Lord. I used to feel that perhaps Judas got a bad hand dealt to him in all of this. In all reality he was free to choose the reverse at any time. The objective of Christ being crucified could have been accomplished with or without Judas betraying him. I feel bad for Judas but he chose what he chose. It all seems to point towards the fact that we have free will and God has all knowledge at the same time unlike us.

-D
[/quote]

This is a good understanding about Judas.


#8

[FONT=Georgia]I think that there have been some very good answers that have been given from the point of view that each is thinking about the consequences of the actions of Judas.

Why Judas? Scripture gives us a very small clue about the character of Judas. St.John wrote about Judas being a thief who took money from the kitty that was destined for the poor. It is a throw away line that is found in the Gospel of John.

However, to understand why Judas, we need to understand the Messianic expectation of the period, that is the version of the Messiah that most understood is that it would be a person from the family of David, who would assume the throne (now occupied illegally by Herod) and who would lead them into battle against the enemy of the Jews at that time - the pagan Romans.

Think about it, Judas did recognize that Jesus is the Messiah, but somewhere along the line his own selfishness took hold and eventually his own selfish desires led him to betray Jesus. All of the Apostles were like Judas when it came to their initial understanding of what the Messiah will be. Judas saw the miracles first hand, he heard the homilies, the parables and more than likely on numerous occasions had been forgiven for his transgressions. Yet, he failed to recognize that Jesus did not come to create an earthly kingdom but a heavenly kingdom. Now if you were an ambitious young man in that era, and you discovered that the Messiah had arrived, would you want to be one of his followers in the belief that this might just gain you a position of power?

Another clue with regard to this angle about the desire for power, I believe comes from examining the attitude of the Jewish leaders who were known to Judas. They knew who Jesus was, but they were afraid to admit that they knew he was the Messiah. Why? Because they were afraid of losing power. That is why Caiaphas made his prophetic statement “it is better for one man to die to save the lives of many”. Judas had the same selfish outlook as the leaders of the Jewish community and that meant he was easily swayed. The Scripture actually tells us at what point Judas made up his mind to sell out his Master.

I totally agree with the statement that the suicide of Judas is the ultimate turning away from God. Imagine, if he had passed Jesus heading towards Calvary, and imagine how much effort he might have put in to avoid seeing the forgiveness in the eyes of Jesus because he could not see beyond his own selfish thoughts.

Judas’s betrayal of Judas was based upon the selfishness of a young man who had not understood the real nature and mission of his Master. The fact that Jesus even mentioned the prospect of betrayal in advance is an indication that Judas had remained deaf to what Jesus was truly saying.

MaggieOH


#9

[quote=MaggieOH][FONT=Georgia]
Why Judas? Rather, could there NOT be a Judas, any Judas.?

[quote=MaggieOH][FONT=Georgia]
… his own selfish desires led him to betray Jesus.

[/quote]

Of lesser importance than the question of motive is the importance of fullfilment of OT scripture. It was destined that someone had to make a wrong decision as a betrayer was planned as part of the sacrifice scenerio.

[quote=MaggieOH][FONT=Georgia]
Yet, he failed to recognize that Jesus did not come to create an earthly kingdom but a heavenly kingdom.

[/quote]

Agree. However, if he had fullfilled your desire, your wish as to what decision he should have made, then what? Please explain the reward and the mission outcome of what would occur if he had met your desires.

[quote=MaggieOH][FONT=Georgia]
Now if you were an ambitious young man in that era, and you discovered that the Messiah had arrived, would you want to be one of his followers in the belief that this might just gain you a position of power?

[/quote]

Are you saying he entered his ministry with ill intent? I don’t recall evidence to this. He did mention he was the son of so-and-so his father, that he was good at his job,etc.

I think eventually he made the wrong assumptions about Jesus as you correctly state. But that in itself is not that grevious as many made the wrong assumptions initially. The sin was placing Jesus in a precarious and deadly position to meet Judas’s ends. He thought by forcing Jesus to defend himself he would bring down his heavenly host to finally defeat the Romans.

Judas was at war reflected in the zealots and turmoil of that time. There was a general animosity toward the heathen conquerers. Focus was on some way of defeating the Romans. If there was any power in this event it was Judas’s intent to have Jesus use his power. It is correct also he was a petty thief, but relative to any other sin anyone else had, and not brought out in prominence because of his infamy. You state correctly the mission was not understood by Judas. I think the idea came up later, not on acceptance.

[quote=MaggieOH][FONT=Georgia]
I totally agree with the statement that the suicide of Judas is the ultimate turning away from God.

[/quote]

If God had complete contempt of someone who would do an awful deed, state in scripture he was doomed, not mention there was room for his repentance, I think it quite reasonable there would be a probability he would see it has hopeless. We must remember the full message of Chirst’s ministry was not realized even up to Mary coming to the apostles after his death stating she had seen Jesus alive. There was doubt even then. I don’t find it justified to assume that Judas would fair better even before Christ’s death, that he would have had the complete realization of his ministry.

In summary, we are commenting on the deeds of an individual who’s part of a cast of an event that had to play out. Everyone is holding a script. Take the script away from Judas and give it to Thephius who will bare false witness against Jesus for theft in order to have him imprisoned, and you will be commenting on his script, take it away from him and …ad infinitum.

Andy
[/quote]


#10

Im still thinking about what to say to some of these topics, but there is one that doesnt sound right.

That thing about turning right instead of left. This is a cheap thing to say. We dont know his mindset. What would saying sorry really have done for him? He didnt get a chance to the lecture from Paul on how much Jesus loved us.


#11

I read somwhere that the names Judas and Barabbas were probably not the true names of these men, that they are names meant to represent Judea (Judas) and its poor choice of who should die: Bar-Abbas (means “son of the Father”) or Jesus the true Son of the Father.

And also that there is no evidence of a tradition for the Romans to release a prisoner (as Barabbas was released).

And that this story was “robbed” from a similar story by Homer.

Is anyone familiar enough to elaborate on this?


#12

[quote=mark a]I read somwhere that the names Judas and Barabbas were probably not the true names of these men, that they are names meant to represent Judea (Judas) and its poor choice of who should die: Bar-Abbas (means “son of the Father”) or Jesus the true Son of the Father.

And also that there is no evidence of a tradition for the Romans to release a prisoner (as Barabbas was released).

And that this story was “robbed” from a similar story by Homer.

Is anyone familiar enough to elaborate on this?
[/quote]

I have not heard this explanation before.


#13

Catholic Dude, prior to studying any case concerning Judas, I feel the question as to weather God had desired Christ be betrayed be answered first.

When we come up with that answer, only then can we bring Judas to trial.

Andy


#14

I am bumping the inset below to try to get an answer.
Thanks.

[quote=mark a]I read somwhere that the names Judas and Barabbas were probably not the true names of these men, that they are names meant to represent Judea (Judas) and its poor choice of who should die: Bar-Abbas (means “son of the Father”) or Jesus the true Son of the Father.

And also that there is no evidence of a tradition for the Romans to release a prisoner (as Barabbas was released).

And that this story was “robbed” from a similar story by Homer.

Is anyone familiar enough to elaborate on this?
[/quote]


#15

I am bumping the inset below to try to get an answer.
Thanks.

[quote=mark a]I read somwhere that the names Judas and Barabbas were probably not the true names of these men, that they are names meant to represent Judea (Judas) and its poor choice of who should die: Bar-Abbas (means “son of the Father”) or Jesus the true Son of the Father.

And also that there is no evidence of a tradition for the Romans to release a prisoner (as Barabbas was released).

And that this story was “robbed” from a similar story by Homer.

Is anyone familiar enough to elaborate on this?
[/quote]


#16

[quote=Catholic Dude]Im still thinking about what to say to some of these topics, but there is one that doesnt sound right.

That thing about turning right instead of left. This is a cheap thing to say. We dont know his mindset. What would saying sorry really have done for him? He didnt get a chance to the lecture from Paul on how much Jesus loved us.
[/quote]

I thought it was a rather interesting observation (and I wouldn’t consider Frank Sheed a cheap-shot artist). The point was in contrasting him with Peter, who also betrayed the Lord, but then repented.

I certainly don’t know what would have happened to Judas if he had repented. I do know, however, that God wants all of us to repent and turn from sin. In fact, that was the whole point of our Lord’s ministry.


#17

[quote=mtr01]I thought it was a rather interesting observation (and I wouldn’t consider Frank Sheed a cheap-shot artist). The point was in contrasting him with Peter, who also betrayed the Lord, but then repented.

I certainly don’t know what would have happened to Judas if he had repented. I do know, however, that God wants all of us to repent and turn from sin. In fact, that was the whole point of our Lord’s ministry.
[/quote]

.
Ok, I get what you are saying, I just wouldnt wish that “fate” for anyone.


#18

[quote=AndyF]Rather, could there NOT be a Judas, any Judas.?

[/quote]

Scripture had to be fulfilled. John the Baptist declared the mission of Jesus when he said: “Behold the Lamb of God”.

Why Judas? Because Judas had free will. It was Judas who made the choice to be a follower of Jesus. He was not willed into the role. We can only speculate about his ulterior motives, but we can say with certainty that he did believe that Jesus is the Christ.

Of lesser importance than the question of motive is the importance of fullfilment of OT scripture.

That is why there is a question of motive involved. They were expecting a man from the house of David to lead them into battle. Imagine then what happens when he realises that “It aint gonna happen”.

Are you saying he entered his ministry with ill intent? I don’t recall evidence to this.

I do not recall mentioning any ill intent. Are you putting words into my mouth? He knew and understood the Messianic prophecies. However, like all Jews he misunderstood the true role of the Messiah. Judas chose to be a disciple and follow Jesus, and then it was Jesus who placed Judas in the inner circle of the twelve.

The other Apostles thought in the same way, and there are many times where it is mentioned that Jesus told them that they do not understand. There was no malevolence involved initially.
We know too little about him to draw conclusions about his nature.

I think eventually he made the wrong assumptions about Jesus as you correctly state.

The sin of Judas was the acting upon the decision to betray his Master to the Sanhedrin.

The betrayal was deliberate and he did it for thirty pieces of silver.

Judas was at war reflected in the zealots and turmoil of that time. .

Judas reflected the attitude of the zealots as well as that of the Pharisees, the Sadducees, Scribes and others who wanted to see the Romans leave Jerusalem. There was no love lost between the Romans and the Jews.

One of the major themes behind the betrayal of Jesus is that of selfishness and the desire for power. We do not know at what stage Judas had decided to join in the plot to kill Jesus, but Scripture says:

“Then Satan entered into Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the Twelve. He went to the chief priests and the officers of the guard to discuss a scheme for handing Jesus over to them. They were delighted and agreed to give him money. He accepted, and looked for an opportunity to betray him to them without the people knowing.” (Luke 22:3-6; cf Mark 14: 10-11; cf Matt 26: 17-19)

If God had complete contempt of someone who would do an awful deed, state in scripture he was doomed, not mention there was room for his repentance, I think it quite reasonable there would be a probability he would see it has hopeless.

I am not sure that I can agree that Judas was doomed and that there was never any hope for him. For Scripture always shows that God is always calling the sinner to repentance. The Prodigal Son had the inheritance and wasted what he had. Judas had an inheritance because he was one of the Twelve and he had been personally taught by the Master. Yet, Judas wasted his inheritance. When Judas finally realized that he had made a mistake, he did not call on the Father and repent, but in his mental condition, because of his acceptance of the temptations of Satan, he was not able to see that the Father would have forgiven him.

In summary, we are commenting on the deeds of an individual who’s part of a cast of an event that had to play out. Everyone is holding a script.
Andy

I see where you are coming from, but I do not think that you give the answer of why Judas? Are they all just bit players? Perhaps. However, what made them bit players? Only Jesus knew the hearts of these men involved in the plot to kill him as well as those who individually played their parts. From the beginning Jesus knew the heart of Judas. He tried to warn him, and the Gospels indicate at various points where Jesus actually hinted or mentioned that he would be betrayed. Yet Judas did not heed the warning. Why?

Because, from the beginning Judas failed to give up his sinful ways. Each time he committed sin his mind and conscience became clouded until he could no longer connect to the fact that Jesus really was the Son of God. His mind was clouded because he had a different image of Messiah than the reality of the prophecies.


#19

[quote=AndyF]Catholic Dude, prior to studying any case concerning Judas, I feel the question as to weather God had desired Christ be betrayed be answered first.

When we come up with that answer, only then can we bring Judas to trial.

Andy
[/quote]

The betrayal was necessary because it was prophesied in the Scripture. The betrayal is prefigured in the Book of Isaiah as the Suffering Servant.

The answers lies in the understanding of the meaning of “sacrifice”. The Jews had to sacrifice all those lambs and bulls but what good were those sacrifices unless they were sanctified in some way. The only way that this could come about was through the Perfect Sacrifice so that afterwards only a clean oblation would be offered to the Lord.

Maggie


#20

[quote=MaggieOH]The betrayal was necessary because it was prophesied in the Scripture. The betrayal is prefigured in the Book of Isaiah as the Suffering Servant,…
Maggie
[/quote]

(I will end your sentence)

… and was a pre-planned necessity, therefore it required someone to realize that betrayal.

You avoid answering my questions.

I’ll ask you again as a refresher:

What would occur if Judas had done what you wished him to do?

Remember, your there right now, you care for Judas’s soul as any person should. Your given a chance to go back in time to talk to Judas. Judas is on his way to meet a friend before passover and Maggie just happens to come upon him. What would you say to him? Your desires you expressed here as
a caring individual is that you want him to become a righteous person.

You speak to him and tell him he’s wrong in his evil desires, and Judas has listened to Maggie and agrees he’s taking the wrong road. He tells Jesus he prefers to move on.

Now what?

Andy


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