Judas gets a makeover?


#1

What is this all about?

timesonline.co.uk/article/0,13509-1981591_1,00.html

From the link:

"Now, a campaign led by Monsignor Walter Brandmuller, head of the Pontifical Committee for Historical Science, is aimed at persuading believers to look kindly at a man reviled for 2,000 years.

"Mgr Brandmuller told fellow scholars it was time for a “re-reading” of the Judas story. He is supported by Vittorio Messori, a prominent Catholic writer close to both Pope Benedict XVI and the late John Paul II.

"Signor Messori said that the rehabilitation of Judas would “resolve the problem of an apparent lack of mercy by Jesus toward one of his closest collaborators”.


#2

Jesus said of Judas, “But woe to him by whom the Son of Man is betrayed, for it would have been better for him had he never been born.”

If God is saying that it would have been better for Judas that he had never been born, then I don’t think its hard to guess Judas’ eternal fate.


#3

[quote=DreadVandal]Jesus said of Judas, “But woe to him by whom the Son of Man is betrayed, for it would have been better for him had he never been born.”

If God is saying that it would have been better for Judas that he had never been born, then I don’t think its hard to guess Judas’ eternal fate.
[/quote]

But what is this new position? And how am I to respond to non-Catholics who use this against us?


#4

:cool:

[quote=jim1130]But what is this new position? And how am I to respond to non-Catholics who use this against us?
[/quote]

First thing I would say is that the only thing you’ve heard is from a news source. No new official teaching on Judas has been proposed and we don’t know how reliable the news report is. Then, I wouldn’t say anything else unless something does develop out of it.


#5

just guesses…but things that I have thought of before.

  1. Jesus final destination was to redeem all of mankind through sacrifice on the cross…someone had to be Judas…it had to happen, and so he did assist Jesus in his destination.

  2. When Judas threw the thirty coins…was that not a show of repentence?

  3. We cannot judge who is in Hell…not even Judas!

  4. Judas is the opposite of Mary…all generations have called her Blessed…and all call him cursed…possibly that is why it would have been better for him not to be born.


#6

[quote=Lillith]just guesses…but things that I have thought of before.

  1. Jesus final destination was to redeem all of mankind through sacrifice on the cross…someone had to be Judas…it had to happen, and so he did assist Jesus in his destination.

  2. When Judas threw the thirty coins…was that not a show of repentence?

  3. We cannot judge who is in Hell…not even Judas!

  4. Judas is the opposite of Mary…all generations have called her Blessed…and all call him cursed…possibly that is why it would have been better for him not to be born.
    [/quote]

While its not definitive Church teaching, it seems to be theologically probable that Judas is damned. Judas hung himself, it was not true repentance. Also, Judas’ actions were entirely free. God compels no one to sin. God used Judas’ free actions in order to bring about Christ’s sacrificial offering. Christ could have still gone to the cross without Judas’ betrayal.


#7

First thing I would say is that the only thing you’ve heard is from a news source. No new official teaching on Judas has been proposed and we don’t know how reliable the news report is. Then, I wouldn’t say anything else unless something does develop out of it.
[/quote]

Excellent point. There is no need to develop a response to what is at this time only a spotty secular news report about what is now, apparently, a proposal to speculate on a non-essential of the Faith.


#8

[quote=Fidelis]Excellent point. There is no need to develop a response to what is at this time only a spotty secular news report about what is now, apparently, a proposal to speculate on a non-essential of the Faith.
[/quote]

Thank you. This is why I seek your guidance.


#9

a news report on a religious topic in the London or NY Times has about the same journalistic integrity and reliability as a program on the History channel, that is, nil, so no need to react. Wait til you see it on Zenit.


#10

Interesting topic
And an old one

Did “Father forgive them, they know not what they do,” just apply to all of those immediately involved in the crucifixion, or to all of us…did it include Judas?


#11

[quote=DreadVandal]Judas hung himself, it was not true repentance.
[/quote]

I don’t see how you can make this claim. The Rhiems NT says that Judas repented.

Furthermore, if Judas’ was still under the OT Law (which seems likely), then the penalty for an unjust killing was death. He may have been showing his obedience to The Law.

Thirdly, he may have been mentally unstable, in which case his suicide can not be a measure of his repentence one way or the other.

Fourthly, does not charity demand that we give him the benefit of the doubt?


#12

[quote=steveandersen]Interesting topic
And an old one

Did “Father forgive them, they know not what they do,” just apply to all of those immediately involved in the crucifixion, or to all of us…did it include Judas?
[/quote]

It would have been too late for Judas. He hanged himself after hearing Jesus had been condemned but before Jesus was on the cross saying these words.


#13

[quote=DreadVandal]While its not definitive Church teaching, it seems to be theologically probable that Judas is damned. Judas hung himself, it was not true repentance. Also, Judas’ actions were entirely free. God compels no one to sin. God used Judas’ free actions in order to bring about Christ’s sacrificial offering. Christ could have still gone to the cross without Judas’ betrayal.
[/quote]

However, the Church now acknowledges that suicide runs contrary to our deepest instinct - self preservation - and is usually in conjunction with serious states of depression, which can mitigate against the seriousness of the offense. That is why the Church will give a suicide victim a church burial.


#14

[quote=thistle]It would have been too late for Judas. He hanged himself after hearing Jesus had been condemned but before Jesus was on the cross saying these words.
[/quote]

;And the point of that was - what? That by Christ’s words someone was saved? My recollection is that people are and were saved by Christ’s death and Ressurection.


#15

Matt.27

[3] When Judas, his betrayer, saw that he was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders

That’s from the Igantius RSV. The NAB says Judas “deeply regretted,” which in my mind is different than “repented.” Seems like there could be hope for Judas as God’s mercy is pretty amazing. When in doubt I usually lean more towards the RSV translations as the NAB kind of bugs me in some of its translations.


#16

I have always been curious about this subject…these are just musings.

Both Luke and John say that “Satan took possession of Judas”

Luke 22:3…
and more detailed
John 13:26

  1. “The one to whom I give the bit of food I dip in the dish” He dipped the morsel, then took it and gave it to Judas, son of Simon Iscariot. 27. Immediately after, Satan entered his heart. Jesus addressed himself to him “Be quick and do what your about to do”

When I read that it seems to me that Jesus was addressing Satan. Question…do you think it was a literal possession, or was this wording just a way to describe hate that was in Judas’ heart.


#17

[quote=otm];And the point of that was - what? That by Christ’s words someone was saved? My recollection is that people are and were saved by Christ’s death and Ressurection.
[/quote]

My point is that once someone is in Hell they are there forever. There is no escape from Hell.
So his death and resurrection would make no difference to those already in Hell. They were not saved.
The death and resurrection of Jesus only saves us if we keep the faith, do good works out of that faith, and are in a state of grace at the time of our death.


#18

This article may shed a little more light on the issue…

[/font]http://www.cathnews.com/news/601/40.php

Australian Cath. News

Vatican makeover for Judas Iscariot?

SOURCE: (Ekklesia 12/1/06)

(For full text, go to above link)

[font=Times New Roman]"…Within Christendom, a close alliance of church and government meant that Christians often played down Jesus’ radical message of mercy, love and forgiveness. Such values did not sit well with a church which had to play a part in governing, waging wars imprisonment and torture, and Jesus was often interpreted in more retributive terms.

As the church moves further from government however, room is made for interpretations of Jesus to re-emerge that are more in keeping with ideas of forgiveness rather than punishment.

Signor Messori said that the rehabilitation of Judas would “resolve the problem of an apparent lack of mercy by Jesus toward one of his closest collaborators…”.

[/font]


#19

“Twixt the stirrup
And the ground
Mercy I asked for
Mercy I found”


#20

[quote=maklavan]“Twixt the stirrup
And the ground
Mercy I asked for
Mercy I found”
[/quote]

…how very beautiful, Maklavan. Thank you very much! It sounds like a quote from a poem - is there a link you can give or perhaps if you give me the title I can find the poem or whatever.

Barb:)


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