Judas gets a makeover?


[quote=BarbaraTherese]This article may shed a little more light on the issue…


Australian Cath. News

Vatican makeover for Judas Iscariot?

SOURCE: (Ekklesia 12/1/06)


Talk about revisionism. Well, I find it hard to believe that the Holy Father would endorse this stupidity, but we’ll see.


When Jesus Christ - GOD Himself - refers to someone as “The Son of Perdition,” you may pretty well rest assured that the person is eternally lost.
Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)


Didn’t Judas already get a makeover in “Jesus Christ Superstar”?

~~ the phoenix


I know every word of Superstar from beginning to end. I’ve seen the movie over and over again, as well as seen productions of it live on stage. Despite the fact that he “narrates” the show, Judas’ character in Superstar comes across to me as whiney, bitchy, and self-righteous. I don’t think it portrays him particularly favorably at all.
Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)


Oh, so now we’re supposed to ask Judas to pray for us?

Think again, Monsignor.

More topsy-turvy theology!


[quote=Fidelis]Excellent point. There is no need to develop a response to what is at this time only a spotty secular news report about what is now, apparently, a proposal to speculate on a non-essential of the Faith.

There is about as much need to have a position on this matter as there is to define whether Seraphim dance on the heads of pins; or whether only members of the lowest angelic choir do so. If people wish to waste their time speculating on such fooleries, they should at least spare the rest of the Church their silliness. It’s not even “a non-essential of the Faith” - it’s even less important than that; its an empty speculation, and nothing more. This is the kind of speculation that gives Catholic thought a deservedly bad name.

The question is as theologically important as that invented question would be. The Church is not an Encyclopedia on all questions that could possibly arise, such as his current state: about which there is no more information now than there was 1975 years ago. The talent of people in the Vatican for wasting time over frivolous absurdities such as this, is never short of amazing.

If people really want the news about it, the Osservatore Romano is probably the best source ##


[quote=DreadVandal]Jesus said of Judas, “But woe to him by whom the Son of Man is betrayed, for it would have been better for him had he never been born.”

If God is saying that it would have been better for Judas that he had never been born, then I don’t think its hard to guess Judas’ eternal fate.

Your comment says it all!
What on earth gives theologians the right to think that they can start changing 2000 years of understanding. There seems to be no doctrine of Scripture or the Church that some theologian does not want to revise.
Our Lord made the final and definitive comment about Judas and I suggest we let it rest at that.
The Monsignor will have to find another way of making a name for himself.


[quote=BarbaraTherese]…how very beautiful, Maklavan. Thank you very much! It sounds like a quote from a poem - is there a link you can give or perhaps if you give me the title I can find the poem or whatever.


The poet was William Camden


[quote=maklavan]The poet was William Camden

Thank you…I shall look it up. Regards, Barb


Okay, I’ve given this some more thought and I believe that God’s mercy is the only hope Judas has. Let’s face it, he died in state of mortal sin. While I can’t presume to know his fate, I know I wouldn’t want to die with what he had hanging over me when I went before our Lord. He was there with Christ during His ministry. He saw the miricles. He heard the word. Yet he betrayed all of that for his own self-interest. I’m inclined to say that the belief that he was saved in the end is a tougher sell than the author of the article in question believes. All things are possible with God, and part of me hopes he did experience God’s mercy as that sort of implies that a miserable sinner like me has a better chance; yet if I were to bet on it…I would have lean toward ole Judas heading downstairs.


Interesting thread unfolding.

First I think we all betray Jesus through sin. The very word ‘sin’ in our cultural spiritual understanding is to turn away from Jesus to some degree or other. We also understand that these very same sins contributed to the death of Jesus. We are all in some measure guilty, not only Judas.

Second, we cannot know Judas’ disposition between rope and earth…perhaps prior to death he was sorry. “Between stirrup and ground, Mercy I sought and Mercy I found” as Maklaven pointed out in his quote from William Camden.

As another Poster pointed out all these matters are purely speculation since who can discern who is and who is not outside the Eternal and Infinite Mercy of God. Personally I do hope to see Judas in Heaven…both of us victims of that self same Infinite Mercy.

As to “Jesus Christ Superstar” I agree with the Poster who found Judas in the opera a whinning confused being…I found the Judas of the Opera very much like me at times and that was the positive thing that the Opera did say to me amongst other matters.

Also I found this comment from Australian Catholic News Resources quite insightful of history and how history affected our spiritual attitudes and history always does…

[font=Times New Roman][font=Arial]"…Within Christendom, a close alliance of church and government meant that Christians often played down Jesus’ radical message of mercy, love and forgiveness. Such values did not sit well with a church which had to play a part in governing, waging wars imprisonment and torture, and Jesus was often interpreted in more retributive terms.

As the church moves further from government however, room is made for interpretations of Jesus to re-emerge that are more in keeping with ideas of forgiveness rather than punishment…"[/font]

In Scripture The Lord does appear to condemn Judas…then we all stand under that condemnation to some degree…and equally rescued from it by the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do” And I am convinced that if I really knew the horror of sin compared with God’s Goodness, I would die rather than even commit the slightest fault let alone venial sin.

If at final judgement I am to be a victim of God’s Justice, then I am in real trouble indeed and am condemned. I hope however ardently to be rather and with all a victim of His Divine Infinite Mercy. “That you be without reproach when you judge, oh see Lord, a sinner was I conceived” (Divine Office)

There is perhaps nothing quite so much to ponder over “in fear and trembling” as “Not all who say Lord! Lord! shall enter into My Kingdom”…it sure makes me tremble.

As I see things…Regards - Barb:) [/font]


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