Judas


#1

In a previous thread I had started, I was informed that some do not believe Judas is in hell. I don’t even know what the Church teaches about this? (I know, they cannot say, blah blah blah), BUT I always thought it was a given. IF the Church & others do not feel he is in hell, how does Mt 26:24 & Mk 14:21 fit in? I’d LIKE to believe he’s not in Hell, but, I just really always thought that he is the one person we CAN say for certain IS.


#2

I thought I’d copy my post from that thread to get the conversation going, or to explain why people think he may not be:

Slightly off topic, but Judas did not necessarily go to Hell, and God certainly didn’t condemn him by predestining him to betray Jesus. He had the chance to repent and come back to Jesus and ask forgiveness, which he did not do.

As the Church teaches concerning suicide, it is possible that in any final instance of life, concious or not, before his death, Judas could have repented.

In fact, some Catholic theologians in the past have speculated that Juda hung himself because he wanted to go to the afterlife and find Jesus and ask His forgiveness. Of course this may not have worked, since Jesus went to Abraham’s bosom and Judas may have gone to hell, but then again if Judas hung himself BECAUSE he was repentant and wanted to seek Christ’s forgiveness, that might count for something since he was trying to do what he thought was right, and in fact sacrificing his life for the sake of following Jesus’ command to confess and be forgiven. This idea becomes more interesting when you realize that Jesus hadn’t really taught his Apostles all that we know today until after the resurrection, so Judas didn’t necessarily understand everything. Additionally, remember that Jesus said that “you,” speaking to the 12 Apostles (including Judas), “would sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel.” He told this to Judas, knowing that he would betray him. All very interesting.


#3

Hi there! I think the reason that we can’t say FOR SURE that he is in hell is because we don’t know his state of mind before he died. In fact, it is possible that as he was hanging, he realized the wrong he had done, truly meant it, and asked for God’s forgiveness right before he died. So we don’t know for sure. In fact, the only ‘‘thing’’ we can for sure say is in hell is The Devil. There certainly are souls of people who lived on this earth, but we cannot say specifically which ones with 100% confidence. Hope that makes sense and is not heresy.


#4

But why the “It would be better not for him to have been born” statement? Why?!! WHY?!! :confused: Scare tactic? I mean, it seems pretty ominous to me…


#5

Judas is in hell (and you dont need Dante to tell you that). His sin was unpardonable not simply beause he betrayed Christ (any sin against the son of Man can be forgiven), but because his betrayal represented his final rejection of the Holy Spirit. He chose money over salvation, the moment over eternity – in the most decisive way (betraying the Son of God). He closed his heart off to God once and for all. That’s why, although he repented of his deed (attrition), he sensed the awesomenesss of what he had done, and realized he was under damnation. Unfortunately, as to Saul in his last days, mercy and forgiveness never approached him, because he had finally rejected the Holy Spirit.

…Or so I see it.


#6

[quote=adventistnomore]Judas is in hell (and you dont need Dante to tell you that). His sin was unpardonable not simply beause he betrayed Christ (any sin against the son of Man can be forgiven), but because his betrayal represented his final rejection of the Holy Spirit. He chose money over salvation, the moment over eternity – in the most decisive way (betraying the Son of God). He closed his heart off to God once and for all. That’s why, although he repented of his deed (attrition), he sensed the awesomenesss of what he had done, and realized he was under damnation. Unfortunately, as to Saul in his last days, mercy and forgiveness never approached him, because he had finally rejected the Holy Spirit.

…Or so I see it.
[/quote]

I think it’s possible without question to say he rejected the Holy Spirit at one time, but I don’t see any conclusive evidence that he never accepted it again.


#7

Actually, I have heard it said that his worst sin was DESPAIR. That he for one reason or another, did not believe God could forgive him. He lost all hope, and commited suicide without repenting.

If that were the case- it would be better had he never been born. He did not truly believe ANYTHING was possible with God.

I think his rejection of the 30 silver pieces showed remorse for his actions, and he was clearly in turmoil and sadness over his actions. He did after all, decide to take his own life.

And he and Peter both rejected Christ. But Peter did not loose hope and despair. He looked to the very God he rejected for forgiveness. This was something Judas did not believe he could do.


#8

I’m glad to see a topic regarding Judas Iscariot because i’ve been working on some ideas regarding him for the purpose of discussing OSAS with my Baptist family members. Maybe some of you here could help me firm it up a bit :slight_smile:

Now, when i discuss this with them i’m not going to be doing it necessarily in the sense of trying to show Catholic belief, but rather bring it to them from their own standards … i.e. OSAS, Sola Scriptura, Sola Fides and KJV Bible. So if you have any advice, please try to form it in such a way that it goes along with that, rather than appearing as the Catholic viewpoint on it.

Mt 26:24 “The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born.”

So, from the KJV Bible and applying the principle of Sola Scriptura, it would seem that Jesus himself declares that Judas Iscariot must not have been saved. If he had been saved it would have been good for him to have been born, regardless of any other difficulties in life. For a protestant who holds to SS and KJV I can really see no other option from this verse.

Mt 27:3 “Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,”

Here, again from the KJV and applied with a Sola Scriptura viewpoint it clearly says that Judas repented! This is at the heart of Sola Fides, he believed and repented therefore he was saved! Regardless of what comes later in his life, OSAS demands that he is saved and therefore must go to Heaven.

So it seems that we have Scripture saying that Judas was saved (based on Sola Fides and OSAS) but Jesus himself declaring that Judas was not (based on Sola Scriptura).

The arguments I expect are these:

  1. Judas was not truly saved. He did not actually “accept Jesus into his heart”.

Response1) Sola Scriptura! The Bible does not say he did not “accept” Jesus, it does say he repented. You can’t put words into the Bible that are not there (SS) and you cannot judge what was in his heart. From SS, you can only accept that the Bible says he repented and that is the only necessary thing for salvation (SF).

  1. Jesus only meant that it was better for him not to be born because he would kill himself.

Response2) Killing yourself is worse than going to hell? If by this you mean that Judas is in Heaven then killing himself is irrelevant, Heaven is the Ultimate Reward!

Now, please help me out! I’ve only been working on this mentally so far and I know i’ve left out a few things that crossed my mind (such as “When did the New Covenant actually begin? With Jesus ministry or with his death?”). If you can think of any other possible arguments and possible responses I would appreciate this. And again, remember, this is to be strictly from the viewpoint of a Baptist who holds the 3 beliefs listed and uses the KJV. My goal is to show that in the case of Judas Iscariot, those 3 beliefs can not be in agreement with each other. If I can get any of those family members to see that point, then perhaps I can present to them a more Catholic viewpoint on the subject :smiley:


#9

[quote=KWilliam]I’m glad to see a topic regarding Judas Iscariot because i’ve been working on some ideas regarding him for the purpose of discussing OSAS with my Baptist family members. Maybe some of you here could help me firm it up a bit :slight_smile:

Now, when i discuss this with them i’m not going to be doing it necessarily in the sense of trying to show Catholic belief, but rather bring it to them from their own standards … i.e. OSAS, Sola Scriptura, Sola Fides and KJV Bible. So if you have any advice, please try to form it in such a way that it goes along with that, rather than appearing as the Catholic viewpoint on it.

Mt 26:24 “The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born.”

So, from the KJV Bible and applying the principle of Sola Scriptura, it would seem that Jesus himself declares that Judas Iscariot must not have been saved. If he had been saved it would have been good for him to have been born, regardless of any other difficulties in life. For a protestant who holds to SS and KJV I can really see no other option from this verse.

Mt 27:3 “Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,”

Here, again from the KJV and applied with a Sola Scriptura viewpoint it clearly says that Judas repented! This is at the heart of Sola Fides, he believed and repented therefore he was saved! Regardless of what comes later in his life, OSAS demands that he is saved and therefore must go to Heaven.

So it seems that we have Scripture saying that Judas was saved (based on Sola Fides and OSAS) but Jesus himself declaring that Judas was not (based on Sola Scriptura).

The arguments I expect are these:

  1. Judas was not truly saved. He did not actually “accept Jesus into his heart”.

Response1) Sola Scriptura! The Bible does not say he did not “accept” Jesus, it does say he repented. You can’t put words into the Bible that are not there (SS) and you cannot judge what was in his heart. From SS, you can only accept that the Bible says he repented and that is the only necessary thing for salvation (SF).

  1. Jesus only meant that it was better for him not to be born because he would kill himself.

Response2) Killing yourself is worse than going to hell? If by this you mean that Judas is in Heaven then killing himself is irrelevant, Heaven is the Ultimate Reward!

Now, please help me out! I’ve only been working on this mentally so far and I know i’ve left out a few things that crossed my mind (such as “When did the New Covenant actually begin? With Jesus ministry or with his death?”). If you can think of any other possible arguments and possible responses I would appreciate this. And again, remember, this is to be strictly from the viewpoint of a Baptist who holds the 3 beliefs listed and uses the KJV. My goal is to show that in the case of Judas Iscariot, those 3 beliefs can not be in agreement with each other. If I can get any of those family members to see that point, then perhaps I can present to them a more Catholic viewpoint on the subject :smiley:
[/quote]

Just guessing, but maybe youd be better starting off a new thread, the two issues are related but refuting baptists isnt actually the subject of this thread.

By the way, the arguement you made is brilliant! GO FOR IT! :thumbsup:

God Bless.

Andre.


#10

[quote=Magicsilence]Just guessing, but maybe youd be better starting off a new thread, the two issues are related but refuting baptists isnt actually the subject of this thread.

By the way, the arguement you made is brilliant! GO FOR IT! :thumbsup:

God Bless.

Andre.
[/quote]

Thanks! I was in a bit of a hurry because I needed to run to the store and just realized as I got back that this is the wrong forum for it anyway lol. Please ignore my post here and I’ll shortly post it over in “Non-Catholic Religions” where it belongs :o


#11

And now for an on-topic post by me :o

I’m not sure if there is any official teaching by the Church on the disposition of Judas’ soul, but assuming the lack of any doctrine on the subject I would tend to guess that he is likely in Hell (man, lots of qualifiers there lol).

Jesus’ statement that it would have been better for him not to have been born is a clear implication that Judas would end up in Hell. I would gather that this is likely the belief of most Catholics (and quite possibly, that of the Church itself) but would not be formally taught so as to continue the practice of not specifically assigning anyone to Hell. If we were to formally state that even one person is definitely in Hell (other than those specifically so noted in the Bible, such as the rich man in the parable) it would open the floodgates for Protestants to claim that the Catholic Church is in the practice of condemning people to Hell. Better to remain silent on the topic and avoid controversy over something that is non-salvific.

One thing I have read in regards to Mt 26:24 is that in a sense it pre-destines Judas to Hell, denying him the choice in salvation. I think though, that it is important to note that Jesus does not specifically name Judas in that passage, only the “betrayer of the Son of man”. In this sense it only says that whoever it is that betrays Jesus will end up in Hell, not necessarily Judas.

“But how could it not have been Judas? Wasn’t he just playing his part?” Note that Jesus never once specifically says that it is Judas that will betray him. It could have been any of the Apostles by at least one Gospel account! Of course God, being omniscient, knew that it would be Judas in the end … but Judas still had a choice! If he had instead chosen to be faithful and not betray Jesus, this would not necessarily have resulted in scripture not being fulfilled but instead it may have ended up being another Apostle at a later date that betrayed Jesus.

We don’t know what was in the hearts and minds of every Apostle at all times. Many of them may have had similar doubts to Judas at that time and if Judas had not been the betrayer, it is quite possible that any of the others may have eventually chosen to betray Jesus due to pressure or danger. The prophecies would have been fulfilled eventually, regardless of who was the betrayer … it just so happens that Judas was the one.

Me personally, I can accept that Judas regretted/repented (depending on Bible translation used) of his betrayal and could indeed have been St. Judas of Iscariot. It was his despair in the end that was his downfall, his inability to accept the forgiveness that Jesus granted him after his repentence. Maybe he did at the very last moment before his death find repentance and acceptance, we cannot be sure. But I choose to believe that Jesus makes it clear that this is unlikely.

Of course, if someone knows the exact teaching of the Catholic Church on the subject, I would of course submit myself to that teaching :slight_smile:


#12

I’m not saying Judas is in Heaven, but I can see one way of interpreting the passage about it being better for him never to have been born that still keeps him out of Hell. It might be stretching the interpretation a bit, though.

Jesus said it was better for Judas never to have been born rather than betray the Son of Man. If Judas had been conceived but had been stillborn, he never would have been born, and his soul would have been entrusted to God’s mercy. Now, we don’t know exactly what awaits unbaptized babies, but we do know they’re not in Hell because they never committed a sin. If Judas betrayed Jesus and then had a change of heart at the last minute, he might have spent a long time in Purgatory, followed by Heaven, which would be much worse than immediately entering Heaven (assuming that that’s where the unbaptized babies go, but that’s a different topic).
Like I said, I think I’m stretching it here, but it is a possibility (maybe).


#13

I don’t think Judas is in hell.He betrayed Christ,but he repented. He even returned the coins and tried to break the deal with the religious leaders.All right,he commited suicide,but nobody knows his state of mind.Maybe he believed that even if Jesus forgave him(I know he did forgive him)his concience,his mind would never be at rest.So at the end I think Jesus forgave him,because he forgives to anyone who repents.:yup:


#14

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