Jude 1:4 what is he saying?


#1

What is this verse saying:

Jude1:4
For there have been some intruders, who long ago were designated for this condemnation, godless persons, who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and who deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Specifically, “who long ago were designated for this condemnation”.

A Protestant could perhaps argue he is speaking of predestination, yet I believe in free will so I know this cannot be the case.


#2

Maybe it refers to the fallen angels after they rebelled.


#3

First of all, the idea of predestination is a Catholic doctrine. Read up on your Augustine. Predestination is more clearly presented and affirmed in other scripture texts, and this passage seems to support it as well, although I admit this one could be read a few different ways. I think the most troubling aspect of your quote however is that you stated you believe in free will, therefore the scripture can’t mean what it means. That is a backwards mode of thinking. Doctrine needs to be derived from scripture, not from our presuppositions.


#4

The text doesn’t really support that rendering. It says right in the letter that the issue is that godless persons have crept into the church and had begun to teach false doctrines and licentious practices.


#5

I think the devil can creep into the Church and spread heresies through people.


#6

Not denying that, but the question is regarding the text in front of us, and the text doesn’t seem to be making that point.


#7

I think Jude is using the image of a heavenly record of the names and deeds of saints and unrepentant sinners, to illustrate that these false teachers have been active since the beginning of Christianity.


#8

I’m pretty sure predestination is heresy. At least according to the Catholic encyclopedia. That is why I know that he cannot be speaking in regards to predestination. I must admit I need to do a lot more reading and studying of the faith though.


#9

for me these are apostles letters of current events but only jude can explain…i wouldn’t expand on it
just keep reading on then I would ask the father at church what is jude saying, grace and peace be to you brother on your journey of the apostles…


#10

OK. I’ve been doing some more research and it seems that the term predestination is not quite what I thought it was. Anyways, the idea that we do not have free will and that God predestined some to hell is heresy and that is what I was speaking of. I think it’s called double predestination or predestinatarianism.


#11

Catholics admit predestination in the sense of knowledge, for God has known for all eternity who is saved and who isn’t. But not in the sense of cause, because we have been created with free will and are not forced one way or the other. It’s just that God knows what we will do with our free will.


#12

I’ve been reading the Haydock commentary based on the Douay Rheims version and it seems that translation uses the word “foretold” rather than “designated” which would make sense.


#13

The original Greek seems to mean “foretold”.


#14

I thought it was double predestination, i.e. Calvinism, that was a problem?


#15

You are correct. I was just confused.


#16

This is a backwards way of thinking too! Doctrine is received from Christ through the Apostles. We know we have understood the Scripture correctly when it is consistent with what was delivered to us.

Yes, foreknowledge is not the same as predestination.

Psalm 139:16
16 Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance;
in thy book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.


#17

The words “long ago” could refer to the prophecy of Enoch mentioned in Jude 14-15:

It was of these also that Enoch in the seventh generation from Adam prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads, to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness which they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

And/or to “the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ” mentioned in Jude 17-18:

But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; they said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.”

And/or to the prophecy of Jesus Christ himself mentioned in Matthew 24:11 or something similar:

And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.


#19

Huh? It is Christian doctrine. And it does NOT NOT NOT come from the bible as so many wrongly assert. That fragmentary, partial, incomplete book known as the bible contains perhaps 1% max of what our Lord taught. It refers to the Church and the long-standing tradition of the Apostles.

Rather, Christ taught and the Holy Spirit lead the Apostles into all truth. There was no New Testament. Then, by divine command, the Apostles handed their teaching on. A tiny fraction was written. The bible tell us this, but only if you actually read it paying attention.

Yes, predestination is true. What is utterly, completely, horribly false is the European, man-made invention of “Double predestination” which is not biblical in any sense. It tells of a ‘god’ who creates only to destroy in hell. Utterly false, if not blasphemous. God desires the salvation of all. That puts the utter and complete lie to Calvin et al. Such an arbitrary and capricious god might send you to hell on a goof.

1 Predestination = good.
2. “Double-predestination” = very very wrong and anti-biblical.


#20

A Protestant cant argue anything. Seeing as Martin Luther wanted to take Jude out of the New Testament. Heretics.


#21

I agree. You will note that I did not suggest or use the term double predestination. I was addressing an issue that the Bible clearly teaches is true yet the forum creator insisted wasn’t true despite the biblical witness.


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