Just a thought on gay marriage.


#1

I can understand the Church’s stance on homosexual activity and why they would never hold gay marriages or recognize them.

But what I don’t understand is how so many Catholics are so politically against the legalization of gay marriage. Or worse, how some Catholics believe than anyone who supports the legalization of gay marriage is sinning.

Isn’t there a point to separation of church and state?

Catholic law isn’t American law. Ultimately, our decisions will all be judged before God - but you can’t require everyone to live a Catholic life. Missing mass is a mortal sin too, but that’s not illegal. If Catholic opinion doesn’t make up the majority opinion, so be it.

And I don’t think those of us who feel this way are sinning simply by feeling this way. I can be supportive of legalizing gay marriage without being supportive of Catholic gay marriage.


#2

Redefining marriage has ALREADY affected religious liberties. Look at the photographer who was sued for discrimination for refusing to photograph a gay wedding. They were trying to live their faith, and the government came in and sai no you can’t do that.

Ultimatley the church will have to refrain from performing all marriages because they can’t afford to be considered agents of the state.

What happens civilly affects us religiously.


#3

[quote="BcuzISaidSo, post:2, topic:307691"]
Redefining marriage has ALREADY affected religious liberties. Look at the photographer who was sued for discrimination for refusing to photograph a gay wedding. They were trying to live their faith, and the government came in and sai no you can't do that.

Ultimatley the church will have to refrain from performing all marriages because they can't afford to be considered agents of the state.

What happens civilly affects us religiously.

[/quote]

I would like to look at that. Do you have a news link?


#4

[quote="lllj, post:1, topic:307691"]
I can understand the Church's stance on homosexual activity and why they would never hold gay marriages or recognize them.

But what I don't understand is how so many Catholics are so politically against the legalization of gay marriage. Or worse, how some Catholics believe than anyone who supports the legalization of gay marriage is sinning.

Isn't there a point to separation of church and state?

Catholic law isn't American law. Ultimately, our decisions will all be judged before God - but you can't require everyone to live a Catholic life. Missing mass is a mortal sin too, but that's not illegal. If Catholic opinion doesn't make up the majority opinion, so be it.

And I don't think those of us who feel this way are sinning simply by feeling this way. I can be supportive of legalizing gay marriage without being supportive of Catholic gay marriage.

[/quote]

This kind of thinking is why physicians and mothers within the United States, and the entire world, murder milions of babies each year. The role of the government is to create laws, and protect the citizens. These laws, therefore, ought protect the citizens.

Back to the topic at hand though. Let's make some clear points that are vital to this duscussion:

  1. Marriage is only possible between a man and a woman.

  2. For Catholics, our Faith is REALITY. There are not two sectors of life that we operate within (one CAtholic, the other American). We are Catholics first, and then citizens of a nation. Therefore, We cannot separate our Faith from nationl politics. Voting in favor of homosexual unions is a public statement that you, as a Roman Catholic, would allow homosexuals to attempt an invalid marriage and then commit sodomy. While I recognize they would perform these acts anyway, that does not give one permission to actively allow such actions.

  3. Separation of Church and state has nothing to do with keeping religious beliefs out of politics. It is to keep the state from declaring a national religion, thereby isolating all other belief systems, and outlawing them. I would suggest reading the constitution of the United States of America if you disagree with my point. It clearly identifies a CREATOR that has made every one equal under the law. Therefore, the United States "Separation of Church and state" has nothing to do with keeping religion and politics separated in this regard.


#5

[quote="lllj, post:1, topic:307691"]
I can understand the Church's stance on homosexual activity and why they would never hold gay marriages or recognize them.

But what I don't understand is how -]so many Catholics are so politically against the legalization of gay marriage/-] the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, and the Vatican, are so against the legalization of gay marriage. Or worse, -]how some Catholics believe than anyone who supports the legalization of gay marriage is sinning, /-] how some Catholics do not understand their faith and have not read the clear moral guidelines from the Bishops and the Vatican, regarding the informed Catholic position on civil matters..

[/quote]

Read the documents. Then you won't have to "not understand" any longer.


#6

[quote="JamesATyler, post:3, topic:307691"]
I would like to look at that. Do you have a news link?

[/quote]

Got to get to work now but will hunt for it when I get home.


#7

I have to admit that I understand where you are coming from but you need to stop short of condoning anything that is sinful. As a Catholic we can not support many things because they are sins, our job is not to support things that are sinful no matter who is doing the sinning. Catholics can live their faith by how they vote and who they support and how their live their lives. To say you support gay marriage as long as you are not Catholic undermines our beliefs, and appears to actually support something that we do not support. When you are living your faith the separation of church and state does not apply as it would, for example, if you were trying to read the Bible in a public school. On a day to day basis your faith leads and guides you in all of your actions and you must support the truths of the Church in all of your thoughts and actions. I believe you are well intentioned trying to see other people's side to things but I hope you will consider the results of saying I am opposed to only Catholics having a gay marriage and support it for everyone else.


#8

[quote="lllj, post:1, topic:307691"]
I can understand the Church's stance on homosexual activity and why they would never hold gay marriages or recognize them.

But what I don't understand is how so many Catholics are so politically against the legalization of gay marriage. Or worse, how some Catholics believe than anyone who supports the legalization of gay marriage is sinning.

Isn't there a point to separation of church and state?

Catholic law isn't American law. Ultimately, our decisions will all be judged before God - but you can't require everyone to live a Catholic life. Missing mass is a mortal sin too, but that's not illegal. If Catholic opinion doesn't make up the majority opinion, so be it.

And I don't think those of us who feel this way are sinning simply by feeling this way. I can be supportive of legalizing gay marriage without being supportive of Catholic gay marriage.

[/quote]

America tends to shield its citizens from the beliefs of others citizens. I think its natural for people to want to use every means including the legal system to shape society in the way that conforms with their own belief system. That's the history of the world.

I think it is true to the American philosophy for homosexuals to have equal rights to heterosexuals. I predict that it will eventually become a part of American law. Personally, I appreciate America for what it aims to do in terms of equal rights and equal protection under the law. There are lots of religions and lifestyles that are legal here that I don't personally agree with but I am happy that they can't impose their beliefs on me. God bless America.


#9

[quote="lllj, post:1, topic:307691"]
I can understand the Church's stance on homosexual activity and why they would never hold gay marriages or recognize them.

But what I don't understand is how so many Catholics are so politically against the legalization of gay marriage. Or worse, how some Catholics believe than anyone who supports the legalization of gay marriage is sinning.

Isn't there a point to separation of church and state?

Catholic law isn't American law. Ultimately, our decisions will all be judged before God - but you can't require everyone to live a Catholic life. Missing mass is a mortal sin too, but that's not illegal. If Catholic opinion doesn't make up the majority opinion, so be it.

And I don't think those of us who feel this way are sinning simply by feeling this way. I can be supportive of legalizing gay marriage without being supportive of Catholic gay marriage.

[/quote]

Mary: I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you stating that you support legalizing
gay marriage but just not for Catholics; then it's wrong?


#10

[quote="mountee, post:7, topic:307691"]
I have to admit that I understand where you are coming from but you need to stop short of condoning anything that is sinful. As a Catholic we can not support many things because they are sins, our job is not to support things that are sinful no matter who is doing the sinning. Catholics can live their faith by how they vote and who they support and how their live their lives. To say you support gay marriage as long as you are not Catholic undermines our beliefs, and appears to actually support something that we do not support. When you are living your faith the separation of church and state does not apply as it would, for example, if you were trying to read the Bible in a public school. On a day to day basis your faith leads and guides you in all of your actions and you must support the truths of the Church in all of your thoughts and actions. I believe you are well intentioned trying to see other people's side to things but I hope you will consider the results of saying I am opposed to only Catholics having a gay marriage and support it for everyone else.

[/quote]

I think this is a very well reasoned response.

We Catholics have the right and duty as citizens to vote for what we believe to be best for the common good of society. The Catholic Church does not believe that the acceptance of so-called 'gay marriage' will be for the common good of society. True, people still have the right to sin, but that creates no necessity on our part to recognize a relationship with the civil status of marriage if it is not.

As the Catechism says, we should respect individuals with homosexual desires and be sensitive to their situation, but it would be detrimental to them to tell them that marriage is not always between a man and a woman.

+May the peace of Christ be with you+


#11

[quote="BcuzISaidSo, post:2, topic:307691"]
Redefining marriage has ALREADY affected religious liberties. Look at the photographer who was sued for discrimination for refusing to photograph a gay wedding. They were trying to live their faith, and the government came in and sai no you can't do that.

Ultimatley the church will have to refrain from performing all marriages because they can't afford to be considered agents of the state.

What happens civilly affects us religiously.

[/quote]

In the case you're referring to, the photographer was not asked to photograph a gay wedding. This case happened in New Mexico, where SSM was and is illegal - what she was asked to do was photograph a commitment ceremony for a same-sex couple.

Her refusal was a pretty evident violation of the New Mexico Human Rights Act, as three separate court rulings have confirmed. This case does highlight the sometimes messy intersection between religious liberty and discrimination, but the U.S. Supreme Court has already made statements that sort out these types of conflict.

The point is, however, that legalizing same-sex marriages would not fundamentally alter the current situation that we (or you) are living with. The sad fact of our litigious society is effectively anyone can sue anyone else for basically reason, at any time. Winning that lawsuit is another matter entirely, but the fact of being able to sue someone does not depend, in the slightest, on any given piece of legislation (real or hypothetical) being on the books.

That said, your concern about churches refusing to marry couples is ill-founded. A Church performing marriage ceremonies is not like a photographer offering wedding photography services.


#12

You’re kidding, right?

They’re already imposing their religious and irreligious beliefs on you. Polygamous Mormons and Muslims collect welfare to support their multiple wives, and the Gov’t does nothing. Your tax dollars go to support abortion and artificial contraception.

God Bless


#13

Separation of Church and State is a recent construct.

The state should not impose, but religion should propose.


#14

Once again: the sky is not falling, the Church will not stop practicing the Sacrament of marriage, the Church can’t be forced to marry same-sex couples. Nothing bad is happening.


#15

I think the OP is doing more than just trying to see another point of view. I think he is trying to figure out how a person can be both American and Catholic at the same time. To me, being American means that equal rights for homosexuals should be supported. They are full citizens and deserve to have the same rights and benefits as any other citizen. As an American it is wrong for me to judge them as inferior, in their commitment or love, and it wrong to impose my moral judgment about homosexuality onto my fellow citizens. They can enjoy the same protection from me that I expect to have from my fellow citizens.

It seems to me that when decide on that issue, we are deciding on whether we want America to be more Catholic or do we want America to be more American. The American ideal is to have maximum liberty to choose lifestyle for each and every citizen and to be as free as possible from the oppression and tyranny of other people. America is a secular nation.


#16

Sacramental marriage in only some churches - not civil marriage.

  1. For Catholics, our Faith is REALITY. There are not two sectors of life that we operate within (one CAtholic, the other American). We are Catholics first, and then citizens of a nation. Therefore, We cannot separate our Faith from nationl politics. Voting in favor of homosexual unions is a public statement that you, as a Roman Catholic, would allow homosexuals to attempt an invalid marriage and then commit sodomy.

I vote in favor of same gender marriage. I am not supporting “attempting invalid marriage” (by which I assume you meant “attempting valid marriage”) because the marriage is perfectly valid in the eyes of the State. I seriously doubt that those who practice sodomy are going to refrain because they are not married. Since a rather large percentage of the same gender population who marry are women, I’m really not sure how sodomy applies to the issue, especially as there are males who also don’t practice it, while many heterosexual couples do (including Catholics as it is not banned by the Church).

  1. Separation of Church and state has nothing to do with keeping religious beliefs out of politics.

No, but it has everything to do with keeping religions from making laws other people have to follow just because a religious group believes something.


#17

[quote="lllj, post:1, topic:307691"]
I can understand the Church's stance on homosexual activity and why they would never hold gay marriages or recognize them.

But what I don't understand is how so many Catholics are so politically against the legalization of gay marriage. Or worse, how some Catholics believe than anyone who supports the legalization of gay marriage is sinning.

Isn't there a point to separation of church and state?

Catholic law isn't American law. Ultimately, our decisions will all be judged before God - but you can't require everyone to live a Catholic life. Missing mass is a mortal sin too, but that's not illegal. If Catholic opinion doesn't make up the majority opinion, so be it.

And I don't think those of us who feel this way are sinning simply by feeling this way. I can be supportive of legalizing gay marriage without being supportive of Catholic gay marriage.

[/quote]

But, we CANNOT encourage sin, and we have to oppose all sin, and any legislation which instigates sin is BAD. That is why we all need to vote towards the creation of a state of Catholic Law, not American Law.


#18

[quote="bilop, post:12, topic:307691"]
You're kidding, right?

They're already imposing their religious and irreligious beliefs on you. Polygamous Mormons and Muslims collect welfare to support their multiple wives, and the Gov't does nothing. Your tax dollars go to support abortion and artificial contraception.

God Bless

[/quote]

I'm not a part of the government. I have to pay taxes but other than that no one has ever oppressed me in any way. I give to Caesar what is Caesar's and he leaves me alone. If you want to spend your time anxious about how Caesar spends his money that is up to you. I don't spend time on it.


#19

It’s not simply a matter of opposing something which is sinful. It’s a matter of opposing something which is impossible—something which changes the societal view of the nature of man, the nature of woman, the nature of marriage, the nature of family, and which rejects the natural underpinnings of civilization. The results will not be good.


#20

This is an ethnocentric view of the matter. Not all cultures have viewed marriage as we do, not all of the Judeo-Christian history viewed marriage as we do now. Scripture doesn’t define marriage only as we do now. Cultural views evolve.


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