Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24


#1121

It took me awhile to get it right too. You did somehow in #1077 bring up my conversation to rcwitness but not sure how you did that either!:stuck_out_tongue:


#1122

[LIST]
[/LIST]

[quote="Peter_J, post:1120, topic:442045"]
I haven't forgotten y'all BTW. This is just one of those threads that makes me think "Hmmm, I should post something here that is better than what has already been said by theologians and councils of bishops, so ... "

[/quote]

So...here goes? I look forward to disagreeing with it already!! ;)


#1123

[quote="tgGodsway, post:1119, topic:442045"]
Yeah, in the same way that his body was preparing to be broken in terms of the cross, he broke the literal bread. This is my body... Prophetically proclaiming his death. It was an object lesson to which he wanted us to memorialize. Nothing more and nothing less. It certainly did not become some kind of perpetual bloodless sacrifice, suggesting the cross was not enough. Jesus said it is finished! The sin debt is paid in full. Hallelujah good news!

[/quote]

Christ connected Himself to the Paschal lamb. In order for the Israelites to escape the final plague, they had to kill a yearling lamb on Nisan 14, smear its blood on their doorposts, and eat the lamb. After they were freed God told them to keep the memorial of that moment, that is, to make it present. The Eucharist is the Pasch of the New Covenant. Christ is not crucified again, but we are allowed to participate in His Sacrifice.

This why Paul says:
15 I am speaking as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I am saying. 16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

18 Look at Israel according to the flesh; are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar? 19 So what am I saying? That meat sacrificed to idols is anything? Or that an idol is anything? 20 No, I mean that what they sacrifice, [they sacrifice] to demons,[a] not to God, and I do not want you to become participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and also the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and of the table of demons.

And in Hebrews:
9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teaching.* It is good to have our hearts strengthened by grace and not by foods, which do not benefit those who live by them.g
10
We have an altar* from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat.


#1124

Hmm…so, in either case, works are necessary for salvation, because whether they result from our salvation or contribute to it, the conclusion is the same:

absence of works = absence of salvation.


#1125

[quote="Wannano, post:1122, topic:442045"]
[LIST]
[/LIST]

So...here goes? I look forward to disagreeing with it already!! ;)

[/quote]

What, you mean here goes something better than what has already been said by theologians and councils of bishops?


#1126

[quote="Peter_J, post:1125, topic:442045"]
What, you mean here goes something better than what has already been said by theologians and councils of bishops?

[/quote]

I thought you were going to do that which would be percieved as a Protestant thing to do, so I was taking the other role and offering that I would disagree with whatever you propose. :D


#1127

[quote="Wannano, post:1126, topic:442045"]
I thought you were going to do that which would be percieved as a Protestant thing to do, so I was taking the other role and offering that I would disagree with whatever you propose. :D

[/quote]

Heh. :)

But seriously, isn't that how things work sometimes on an internet discussion forum, i.e. "Never mind what that [VCII document / Papal encyclical / etc] says, I know some Catholics on the Internet and they told me ... " :hmmm: :cool:


#1128

[quote="tgGodsway, post:1119, topic:442045"]
Yeah, in the same way that his body was preparing to be broken in terms of the cross, he broke the literal bread. This is my body... Prophetically proclaiming his death. It was an object lesson to which he wanted us to memorialize. Nothing more and nothing less.

[/quote]

I certainly respect your opinion but I'll stand with the early Christians and the Church throughout the ages on this one.


#1129

I would say absence of works shows an absence of salvation. When someone comes to Christ and is changed then that change will be evident in some way. It doesn’t mean they will do everything perfectly and have a perfect understanding/doctrine. But it means their heart has been changed. Their motivations are changed. They go to living for themselves to living for Christ. They may not know all the theological terms like regeneration and justification and sanctification, but they know that Jesus died for their sins, forgives their sins and they want to follow Him and live for Him.

I would also say the presence of works doesn’t necessarily = salvation. It is possible to be a moral person and do works out of a human nature that mimics works done in faith. As a matter of fact, I think that is one of the great deceptions the devil uses against us. We think if we are good enough then God will be pleased with us and accept us. But is is possible to be very religious and moral and still be lost. Faith must come from the heart and not just the head and works must be an expression of faith and not of ourselves.


#1130

[quote="lanman87, post:1097, topic:442045"]

our works and service and obedience are evidence that we have truly been born of the spirit, that we know christ and the power of his resurrection, and the the love of god is in our hearts. In other words, our works (external actions) shows our faith (which is internal)

I'm puzzled by this idea that we need to show evidence of being born again, or our works show our faith, because that seems to conflict with what Jesus said about not showing off our piety.

Furthermore, evidence to whom? God? No, He already knows. To others? No, we are not to boast nor show off our piety. To ourselves? Maybe, because if we do not have works that is evidence we are not saved, so we do works to prove to ourselves we are indeed saved.

So the question is, have I done enough works to prove I have saving faith?

That's what it looks like to me.

[/quote]


#1131

[quote="lanman87, post:1129, topic:442045"]
I would say absence of works shows an absence of salvation. When someone comes to Christ and is changed then that change will be evident in some way. It doesn't mean they will do everything perfectly and have a perfect understanding/doctrine. But it means their heart has been changed. Their motivations are changed. They go to living for themselves to living for Christ. They may not know all the theological terms like regeneration and justification and sanctification, but they know that Jesus died for their sins, forgives their sins and they want to follow Him and live for Him.

I would also say the presence of works doesn't necessarily = salvation. It is possible to be a moral person and do works out of a human nature that mimics works done in faith. As a matter of fact, I think that is one of the great deceptions the devil uses against us. We think if we are good enough then God will be pleased with us and accept us. But is is possible to be very religious and moral and still be lost. Faith must come from the heart and not just the head and works must be an expression of faith and not of ourselves.

[/quote]

I think I agree. I think you've expressed it well. We are changed, a new person, and our motivations are changed: from living for ourselves to living for Christ.

And you're right, works don't necessarily equate to salvation. One can do works out of a human nature, and not from a faith in God.

But I guess I don't follow your statement that it is possible to be very religious and moral and still be lost. Because if one is religious isn't that the same thing as having faith from the heart? Why be religious if you don't have faith? So they are the same thing. So, trying to be good enough is because we have been changed; the motivation for being good enough is because we have accepted Jesus, to want to surrender to Him and follow Him. We are new persons with new motivations. This is consequence of faith. That's what being "good enough" means, because they know their sins are forgiven and they want to follow Him and live for Him.

Therefore, works do not "earn" salvation. Because as far as "earning" our salvation, "earning" implies providing something of equivalent value. Well, what can we provide that is of equivalent value to heaven? The concept is ludicrous. What can be of the same value as heaven? Of course absolutely nothing.


#1132

[quote="mackbrislawn, post:1131, topic:442045"]

But I guess I don't follow your statement that it is possible to be very religious and moral and still be lost. Because if one is religious isn't that the same thing as having faith from the heart?

[/quote]

Not necessarily. Being religious just means you go to church. Being moral just means you know right from wrong. Our society mostly teaches right from wrong from a Judaeo-Christian viewpoint (although it is fading fast). And people go to church and are even active in church for all kinds of reasons. Maybe it is a habit they were taught as a child and it carried over into adulthood? Maybe they enjoy the beauty and peace of a liturgical service or the excitement and emotion of a Charismatic service? Maybe they like the preacher or there is a cute girl in the youth group? Maybe their wife or mom will be disappointed if they don't go to church? Maybe they like the intellectual discussion in Sunday School classes? Maybe they live in a culture that looks down on you if you aren't in church (which is a big problem here in the south)?

So no, I don't equate being religious as the same thing has having faith. We can be moral because society and our parents did a good job of teaching us to be moral and we can be religious because of cultural or personal reasons. Having a true deep transforming faith goes beyond cultural morality and religiosity.


#1133

[quote="mackbrislawn, post:1130, topic:442045"]

I'm puzzled by this idea that we need to show evidence of being born again, or our works show our faith, because that seems to conflict with what Jesus said about not showing off our piety.

Furthermore, evidence to whom? God? No, He already knows. To others? No, we are not to boast nor show off our piety. To ourselves? Maybe, because if we do not have works that is evidence we are not saved, so we do works to prove to ourselves we are indeed saved.

So the question is, have I done enough works to prove I have saving faith?

That's what it looks like to me.

[/quote]

I think you can know if you have saving faith because you know what is in your heart. Only two know what is in your heart, you and God. That is one reason we balk at the idea of being saved by our works. Because God judges the heart. Our works fluctuate based on health, life situations, financial ability, family responsibilities and so forth. However, our hearts can be full of faith and love no matter the circumstances of life.

However, it is very biblical that our faith is expressed in our actions. In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus said : In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. Matt 5:16

I think "your light" refers to the Holy Spirit living with us and guiding us to have a Love for others that goes beyond anything we could do by ourselves.

So I would say one of the key reasons for our good works is to influence others that the Gospel is the truth and hopefully, influence some to accept the Gospel.

Boasting and showing off our piety is not for the Glory of God, it is to puff ourselves up. It is so folks will look as us and think, "Wow! what a great guy. He is a really strong Christian". However, when we serve others out of the Love of God in our hearts and do so in a way that exalts Christ (instead of ourselves) we are being faithful to the calling of the Gospel.

I would also say that another reason for works is to give evidence to each other that we are indeed children of God. 1 John 3:10 says 'By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother."

If someone claims to be a child of God the evidence is in how they live their life.


#1134

[quote="lanman87, post:1132, topic:442045"]
Not necessarily. Being religious just means you go to church. Being moral just means you know right from wrong. Our society mostly teaches right from wrong from a Judaeo-Christian viewpoint (although it is fading fast). And people go to church and are even active in church for all kinds of reasons. Maybe it is a habit they were taught as a child and it carried over into adulthood? Maybe they enjoy the beauty and peace of a liturgical service or the excitement and emotion of a Charismatic service? Maybe they like the preacher or there is a cute girl in the youth group? Maybe their wife or mom will be disappointed if they don't go to church? Maybe they like the intellectual discussion in Sunday School classes? Maybe they live in a culture that looks down on you if you aren't in church (which is a big problem here in the south)?

So no, I don't equate being religious as the same thing has having faith. We can be moral because society and our parents did a good job of teaching us to be moral and we can be religious because of cultural or personal reasons. Having a true deep transforming faith goes beyond cultural morality and religiosity.

[/quote]

I see what you mean, but to me being religious means you take your faith seriously, that you do indeed have faith. Now sure, lots of people may go to church and such for all the reasons you cited, and these reasons can be for non-religious purposes. And certainly, these reasons do not mean the person is religious or acting because of faith. (Although for someone looking from the outside, these people may look religious even if they aren't.)

So, yes, I do regard being religious and having true faith as the same thing.


#1135

[quote="mackbrislawn, post:1134, topic:442045"]
I see what you mean, but to me being religious means you take your faith seriously, that you do indeed have faith. Now sure, lots of people may go to church and such for all the reasons you cited, and these reasons can be for non-religious purposes. And certainly, these reasons do not mean the person is religious or acting because of faith. (Although for someone looking from the outside, these people may look religious even if they aren't.)

So, yes, I do regard being religious and having true faith as the same thing.

[/quote]

Hi mackbrislawn, I agree with yours and the reply you responded to. However there are those who go to Church more or less because they have to or its expected of them. There are those who attend Church but really are not there as soon as church ends they are outside gossiping about everyone forgetting everything that was preached to them in Church, so just going to Church i8n of itself does not make one religious which is why I agree with your thought religious means taking ones faith seriously. Acting on one's faith by doing something not for gain nor to be recognized for it but out of love for God. A person may know that they are doing good and have good in them but they also know that that goodness comes from God and they still hoe in God's promise of salvation knowing that it is God who in the end decides if they have been justified.


#1136

[quote="James248, post:1123, topic:442045"]
Christ connected Himself to the Paschal lamb. In order for the Israelites to escape the final plague, they had to kill a yearling lamb on Nisan 14, smear its blood on their doorposts, and eat the lamb. After they were freed God told them to keep the memorial of that moment, that is, to make it present. The Eucharist is the Pasch of the New Covenant. Christ is not crucified again, but we are allowed to participate in His Sacrifice.

This why Paul says:
15 I am speaking as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I am saying. 16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

18 Look at Israel according to the flesh; are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar? 19 So what am I saying? That meat sacrificed to idols is anything? Or that an idol is anything? 20 No, I mean that what they sacrifice, [they sacrifice] to demons,[a] not to God, and I do not want you to become participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and also the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and of the table of demons.

And in Hebrews:
9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teaching.* It is good to have our hearts strengthened by grace and not by foods, which do not benefit those who live by them.g
10
We have an altar* from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat.

[/quote]

Yes, we partake spiritually, but there is no evidence we partake literally. Hebrews 7 tells us Christ did that ONCE for all!


#1137

[quote="tgGodsway, post:1136, topic:442045"]
Yes, we partake spiritually, but there is no evidence we partake literally. Hebrews 7 tells us Christ did that ONCE for all!

[/quote]

The Eucharist is not food for the satisfying of the body. It is Christ, the Bread of Life. Unlike those who ate the manna and died, they that eat this bread live forever, So your comment doesn't really attack the Eucharist: it only confirms it is Jesus present,


#1138

[quote="tgGodsway, post:1136, topic:442045"]
Yes, we partake spiritually, **but there is no evidence we partake literally. **Hebrews 7 tells us Christ did that ONCE for all!/QUOT

So the early Church Fathers writings and the fact this has been taught the entire time of the CC's existence is not evidence? Not to mention John 6? I would submit these three alone are clear evidence.

[/quote]


#1139

Hebrews 7 tells us Christ did that ONCE for all![/QUOT

So the early Church Fathers writings and the fact this has been taught the entire time of the CC’s existence is not evidence? Not to mention John 6? I would submit these three alone are clear evidence.
[/QUOTE]

Such dudes will go by their own interpretation.
[/quote]


#1140

tgGodsway:

Hebrews 7 tells us Christ did that ONCE for all!

You also said . . . .

we partake spiritually, but there is no evidence we partake literally.

The fact that Christ “died once for all” is irrelevant with regards to the Holy Eucharist tgGodsway.

Why?

Because Catholics don’t teach Jesus is dying again or being sacrificed again.

The Eucharist is a “participation” or Koinonia in Christ. Not a re-sacrifice.

That’s WHY St. Paul can say . . .

1st CORINTHIANS 10:16-17 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a **participation in the blood of Christ? **The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

Your answer to St. Paul tgGodsway would be something to the effect of . . . . .

. . . . . “No Paul. It’s NOT a “participation” in the body and blood of Christ. We merely partake spiritually, but there is no evidence we partake literally.”

But the Catholic answer to St. Paul’s question would be . . . .

. . . . .“Yes St. Paul. It is.”

Your answer of unbelief to St.Paul seems interesting to me from a person (you tgGodsway) who thinks ONLY their “belief” will get them to Heaven.

Why not at least “believe” St. Paul then tgGodsway?


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