Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24


#1161

Can I ask my non-catholic friends…

Are the “works of the law” Paul speaks of in Romans the same “works” James speaks of?

If not, whats the difference?


#1162

Using the Law of Moses as a means to obtain righteousness was, and is, impossible to do. Why? because no one could actually do it fully. There was no power in the Law to obey it at all times.

The Law's central purpose was NOT so that Israel could obey. It was NOT given as a means to become righteous. The Law was given to show Israel how incapable they were to obey, causing them to repent for having such an independent disposition.

Doing good works from James' point of view was the same. He knew that man could not be justified before God through good works. Why not? Because, number 1, earning eternal life was impossible for anyone to do, except Jesus himself. Secondly, heaven was too costly. The price was too expensive.

However, for James, good works could play a role to justify one self before men, as in the case of Abraham who offered up his only son on the altar.


#1163

[quote="Cathoholic, post:1140, topic:442045"]
tgGodsway:

You also said . . . .

The fact that Christ "died once for all" is irrelevant with regards to the Holy Eucharist tgGodsway.

Why?

Because Catholics don’t teach Jesus is dying again or being sacrificed again.

The Eucharist is a “participation” or Koinonia in Christ. Not a re-sacrifice.

That’s WHY St. Paul can say . . .

1st CORINTHIANS 10:16-17 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? **The bread which we break, is it not a **participation in the body of Christ?

Yes I can agree here. The cup of blessing is the COMMUNION of the blood of Christ! but this is not a literal cup, it is a spiritual cup. The concept here is spiritual. The physical and literal becomes the object lesson pointing to the spiritual truth.

This is why Paul went on to say... "for we being many are one bread, and one body; for we are all partakers of that one bread." This one bread is CHRIST himself, who said in Jn.6:35, I am the bread of life. We are ONE with this one bread. All spiritual talk here. I am the living bread v51 Interestingly, Jesus was that bread who came down from heaven, talking about of how this bread entered this world. Look at Jn. 6:58. It's good stuff.

tgGodsway.

Your answer to St. Paul tgGodsway would be something to the effect of . . . . .

But the Catholic answer to St. Paul’s question would be . . . .

Your answer of unbelief to St.Paul seems interesting to me from a person (you tgGodsway) who thinks ONLY their "belief" will get them to Heaven.

tgGodsway: I am not alone my friend, millions around the world know this truth.

Why not at least "believe" St. Paul then tgGodsway?

[/quote]

tgGodsway: In all respect sir, you do not understand the simple truth here but I am praying you will. soon.


#1164

tgGodsway; can you please define your term “partake spiritually”? Can you defend such an unorthodox position of partaking of the Eucharist “spiritually”.

What more evidence does one need, When the Word of God incarnate say’s, “Take eat, THIS IS MY BODY, TAKE DRINK THIS IS MY BLOOD”.

Do You claim that the Word incarnated is lying or speaking in symbolism here?

I have been following some of your posting, I may be misreading your post’s? or you have a misunderstanding of the Catholic faith, especially in the Eucharist.

Can you name the Liturgical Rite you subscribe to in your Catholic faith?

I understand faith in the Eucharist and when the Church uses the term spiritual to mean a reality, never a symbol. “Faith Alone” can never reach the spiritual reality, in substantial real presence of Jesus true and real body and blood in the Eucharist. Because it is God who acts in the Liturgy of the Eucharist when we participate (work out our salvation in fear and trembling) in the divine communion. No symbol or spiritual works exist here in the Liturgy.

Your’s Gabriel of 12


#1165

[quote="tgGodsway, post:1162, topic:442045"]
Using the Law of Moses as a means to obtain righteousness was, and is, impossible to do. Why? because no one could actually do it fully. There was no power in the Law to obey it at all times.

The Law's central purpose was NOT so that Israel could obey. It was NOT given as a means to become righteous. The Law was given to show Israel how incapable they were to obey, causing them to repent for having such an independent disposition.

Doing good works from James' point of view was the same. He knew that man could not be justified before God through good works. Why not? Because, number 1, earning eternal life was impossible for anyone to do, except Jesus himself. Secondly, heaven was too costly. The price was too expensive.

However, for James, good works could play a role to justify one self before men, as in the case of Abraham who offered up his only son on the altar.

[/quote]

Except it was God who tested Abraham. Not men.


#1166

#1167

[quote="james248, post:1165, topic:442045"]
except it was god who tested abraham. Not men.

[/quote]

yes he did, but this test in genesis 22, did not earn abraham justification. Abraham was already just, years earlier.

His good works became known in all the world and to this day abraham is held in high esteem by three world religions. He is justified by men. Remember, paul said that god would not justify men by works. Romans. 4:3


#1168

tgGodsway
THE FEEDING OF HIS BODY IS A SPIRITUAL FEEDING. IN THE EUCHARIST SPECIFICALLY IT IS A MEMORIAL OF HIS DEATH, AS HE SAID IT WAS. BUT THE FEEDING ON CHRIST GOES BEYOUND THE EUCHARIST. LOOK UP THE MANY VERSES BOTH O.T. AND NEW ON HOW GOD WANT’S US TO EAT FROM HIS TABLE. PSLAMS 91 COMES TO MIND IN THIS MOMENT. THIS IS A COMMON FIGURE OF SPEECH THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE BIBLE.

Thank you for your post:)

From your posting I take it, that your claim of Catholic is not in full communion with Peter =Present Pope in the Latin Rite, is this correct?

Faith and works are at work when Jesus institutes His Eucharist. First of all, Jesus is fulfilling the ancient Hebrew Passover to the letter here. When the high priest, Jesus speaks the Hebrew term zikaron (memory or memorial) in the Passover which literally is translated to make present. When the Jews celebrated their Passover, it was not done by symbolism, spiritual or to remember the old days. The Hebrew Passover Jesus fulfill’s is celebrated Literally in zikaron to make present now. If? you know anything about the Passover of the old testament, you understand what literal zikaron= to make a memorial actual and present now, from a different space and time.

Jesus takes His disciples into the real Passover, when Jesus the eternal real sacrificial lamb, MUST BE EATEN, not by men’s ordinance’s but by God’s command. Secondly, Jesus is doing the Work of His Father, When Jesus gives His body to His disciples to eat, they are stunned and taken back, yet God calls them to faith in the Works of Jesus Christ, Then Jesus commands them to “do this” work, so that all may come to have faith, in my presence =zikaron in Hebrew, anamesis in Greek is the same word the apostles used to record Jesus words at the Last supper.

When the apostles record the Greek word anamesis, the meaning takes on a real substantial presence of Jesus body and blood. Here the work is an action that brings to the present place and time, Jesus did and said in the Last supper.

When the Church celebrates the Last Supper, the memorial is never a past event celebrated in the present. When Jesus speaks and the apostles write, the memorial is zikaron or anamesis which is making the reality of Jesus Last supper present now.

I am not debating your catholic faith here. I hope to disclose to you a Eucharist by faith and works, which the Roman Catholic Church has celebrated since the Last supper.

BUT IN THE MOMENT HE SAID IT, HE HAD NOT YET GONE TO THE CROSS. HE WAS STANDING IN HIS PHYSICAL BODY AND THEIR TOOK BREAD AND SAID “THIS IS MY BODY.” OBVIOUSLY THE BREAD WASN’T HIS PHYSICAL BODY. THIS IS THE FIRST CLUE THAT THESE WORDS WERE FIGURATIVE. IF THE PLANE SENSE DOES NOT MAKE SENSE, YOU ARE IN A FIGURE OF SPEECH.

Not so, as I explained above. We are talking about the Works of God here, not a magician or mere man. Here is a clue for you; Revelation 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast – all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to **the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. , 1 Peter 1: 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot. 20 He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake.
**

True faith attests that God is the only being that can be present in more than one place at once, when no angels or spirits cannot be in more place than once.When nothing is impossible for God who loves us.
True faith and works (Eucharist) supersedes your carnal understanding of Jesus who is God made man fulfilling the Passover in a figurative speech. This is never ever the faith in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic faith.

I HAVE ALREADY SPOKEN ABOUT THIS ISSUE WITH OTHERS. I AM CATHOLIC IN THE SENSE THAT MY FAITH IN CHRIST IS UNIVERSAL IN THE SAME WAY THAT IT IS FOR ROMAN CATHOLICS. THIS WORD IS USED A LOT ON THIS SITE, SO I USE IT TOO TO SHOW THE UNIVERSALITY OF THE BODY OF CHRIST.

I respect your faith position, Now I am clear that you do not practice an Apostolic Liturgy and your catholic faith is not in full communion with Peter =Pope today and apostles = present day bishops around the world in full communion with Peter.

Thanks for clarifying your catholic position.:slight_smile:

Peace be with you


#1169

[quote="tgGodsway, post:1162, topic:442045"]
Using the Law of Moses as a means to obtain righteousness was, and is, impossible to do. Why? because no one could actually do it fully. There was no power in the Law to obey it at all times.

The Law's central purpose was NOT so that Israel could obey. It was NOT given as a means to become righteous. The Law was given to show Israel how incapable they were to obey, causing them to repent for having such an independent disposition.

Doing good works from James' point of view was the same. He knew that man could not be justified before God through good works. Why not? Because, number 1, earning eternal life was impossible for anyone to do, except Jesus himself. Secondly, heaven was too costly. The price was too expensive.

However, for James, good works could play a role to justify one self before men, as in the case of Abraham who offered up his only son on the altar.

[/quote]

I'm not sure what "justified before men" means. Maybe this term can be explained, because otherwise it sounds like boasting. And it seems odd that Abraham would be willing to kill his son just to boast about his faithfulness to God. Were other people around to witness him sacrifice his son?


#1170

[quote="mackbrislawn, post:1169, topic:442045"]
I'm not sure what "justified before men" means. Maybe this term can be explained, because otherwise it sounds like boasting. And it seems odd that Abraham would be willing to kill his son just to boast about his faithfulness to God. Were other people around to witness him sacrifice his son?

[/quote]

Agreed, I never understood this argument either.


#1171

[quote="Gabriel_of_12, post:1164, topic:442045"]

Can you name the Liturgical Rite you subscribe to in your Catholic faith?

[/quote]

I believe he is using the word "catholic" to represent "universal" and not as an affiliation to the RCC.


#1172

Getting back to the topic of being justified by Faith
alone, the Salvation Army uniform has two "S"'s on
the shoulder of their vests, they mean "saved to serve"
in the same way, we are Saved to Serve(to do good
works) Look at Eph. 2:10, that way, we repent of dead
works and do GOOD works. "If when we were enemies,
we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son,
how much more, having been reconciled, will we be
saved by His Life" Rom. 5:10, Yes, we will be saved
by Faith in the Gospel, but if we keep on living in the
flesh we must suffer the consequences(One reaps
what one sows). See 1 Cor. 3:15


#1173

[quote="tgGodsway, post:1167, topic:442045"]
yes he did, but this test in genesis 22, did not earn abraham justification. Abraham was already just, years earlier.

His good works became known in all the world and to this day abraham is held in high esteem by three world religions. He is justified by men. Remember, paul said that god would not justify men by works. Romans. 4:3

[/quote]

We should try to separate the merit of justification from walking in that justification.

God sent His Son Jesus to merit eternal life. Because between man and God, there is an immeasurable inequality. But between Jesus and God, there is eaquality! Jesus merited Justification and reconciliation for all men, not because of any works!

Those who receive the gift of Justification, do so by faith and works. If we say faith alone, without works, then faith is not enough, since faith is incomplete without works. That kind of faith is mere belief without obedience.

If we believe and follow, then works of belief will manifest.

The Catholic Church promotes justification through faith and works, in the sense that St James relates. It also promotes justification by faith apart from works as St Paul relates, because the two are compatible with one another.

Those who wish to oppose the Catholic Church readily receive St James. But the Church is merely promoting James' emphasis and Teaching about the relation of works to saving faith.

James is not talking about the merit of man before God, but who actually is faithful to Jesus. If we are faithful, we have works. If we have no works, we are unfaithful.

The Church recognizes faithful works in two categories... Corporal and Spiritual works of mercy. These 14 classifications of faithful works are what Jesus will require to enter His kingdom. Even if someone is "barely" saved. Whoever has not manifested any of these, through faith, does not know Jesus, and He will cast away.


#1174

[quote="Gabriel_of_12, post:1168, topic:442045"]
Thank you for your post:)

From your posting I take it, that your claim of Catholic is not in full communion with Peter =Present Pope in the Latin Rite, is this correct?

Faith and works are at work when Jesus institutes His Eucharist. First of all, Jesus is fulfilling the ancient Hebrew Passover to the letter here. When the high priest, Jesus speaks the Hebrew term zikaron (memory or memorial) in the Passover which literally is translated to make present. When the Jews celebrated their Passover, it was not done by symbolism, spiritual or to remember the old days. The Hebrew Passover Jesus fulfill's is celebrated Literally in zikaron to make present now. If? you know anything about the Passover of the old testament, you understand what literal zikaron= to make a memorial actual and present now, from a different space and time.

Jesus takes His disciples into the real Passover, when Jesus the eternal real sacrificial lamb, MUST BE EATEN, not by men's ordinance's but by God's command. OF COURSE THEY SHOULD, BUT NOT FOR THE REASONS YOU SAY. "DO THIS IN REMEMBERANCE OF ME.... NOTHING MORE, AND NOTHING LESS... IT WAS A WONDERFUL MEMORAL TO WHICH TODAY MILLIONS ENJOY. YOU READ YOUR THEOLOGY INTO THE PASSAGE RATHER THAN EXTRACT WHAT IS THERE AND ACCEPT IT. TGGODSWAY.

Secondly, Jesus is doing the Work of His Father, When Jesus gives His body to His disciples to eat, they are stunned and taken back, yet God calls them to faith in the Works of Jesus Christ, Then Jesus commands them to "do this" work, so that all may come to have faith, in my presence =zikaron in Hebrew, anamesis in Greek is the same word the apostles used to record Jesus words at the Last supper.

AGAIN, YOU ARE READING YOUR BIAS INTO THE PASSAGE AND COMING TO YOUR CONCLLUSIONS. LET ME QUOTE YOUR CONCLUSIONS FROM JOHN 6:40. "AND THIS IS THE WILL OF HIM THAT SENT ME, THAT EVERY ONE WHICH "SEES THE SON" AND "BELIEVES ON HIM" MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE..."

THESE WORDS CAME BEFORE HIS INSTRUCTIONS ABOUT THE EUCHARIST. HE REPEATED HIMSELF AGAIN IN VERSE 47. I AGREE IT WAS AN EXPRESSION HINGING ON THE PASSOVER IMAGERY. BUT THE CALL TO ETERNAL LIFE IN MANY OTHER PLACES OF SCRIPUTRE DO NOT USE THE SAME IMAGERY TO GET THE MESSAGE OUT. IN OTHER WORDS, ETERNAL LIFE IS BASED ON "BELIEF" NOT "BELIEF PLUS EUCHARIST. SIMPLE POINT. TGGODSWAY.

When the apostles record the Greek word anamesis, the meaning takes on a real substantial presence of Jesus body and blood. Here the work is an action that brings to the present place and time, Jesus did and said in the Last supper.

When the Church celebrates the Last Supper, the memorial is never a past event celebrated in the present. When Jesus speaks and the apostles write, the memorial is zikaron or anamesis which is making the reality of Jesus Last supper present now.

I am not debating your catholic faith here. I hope to disclose to you a Eucharist by faith and works, which the Roman Catholic Church has celebrated since the Last supper.

Not so, as I explained above. We are talking about the Works of God here, not a magician or mere man. Here is a clue for you; Revelation 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast -- all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. **, 1 Peter 1: 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot. 20 He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake.
**

True faith attests that God is the only being that can be present in more than one place at once, when no angels or spirits cannot be in more place than once.When nothing is impossible for God who loves us.
True faith and works (Eucharist) supersedes your carnal understanding of Jesus who is God made man fulfilling the Passover in a figurative speech. This is never ever the faith in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic faith.

THE PRESENCE OF GOD IS NOT ONLY EXPERIENCED AT THE PRACTICE OF THE LORD'S TABLE. IT IS EXPERIENCED AT NEW BIRTH AND BEYOND. HIS PRESENCE IS MANIFEST IN MANY SITUATIONS FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE. THIS IS A CATHOLIC PERSPECTIVE EMBRACED BY MILLIONS AROUND THE WORLD.

I respect your faith position, Now I am clear that you do not practice an Apostolic Liturgy and your catholic faith is not in full communion with Peter =Pope today and apostles = present day bishops around the world in full communion with Peter.

Thanks for clarifying your catholic position.:)

Peace be with you

[/quote]


#1175

If the REAL Catholic position on James needs clarifying I will post this;

[quote="James248, post:48, topic:447474"]
You misunderstand Catholicism. Salvation is a gift, but gifts MUST be received. And once we receive God's gift of salvation, we are expected to WORK IT OUT. In the Parable of the Talents, the Lord gives to one servant 5 talents, another 3, and another 1. Did these servants do ANYTHING to earn their talents? No! But when the moment came when the servants were called to account for their talents, the Lord let those who had doubled His talents into His joy, but the servant who did not double His talent was cast into the darkness of weeping and gnashing of teeth. That is how it is with grace. God has given all sufficient grace to be saved, However, if one does not work with this grace, he will not enter God's rest.

[/quote]


#1176

If the REAL Catholic position on James needs clarifying I will post this;

Quote:
Originally Posted by James248 View Post
You misunderstand Catholicism. Salvation is a gift, but gifts MUST be received. And once we receive God’s gift of salvation, we are expected to WORK IT OUT. In the Parable of the Talents, the Lord gives to one servant 5 talents, another 3, and another 1. Did these servants do ANYTHING to earn their talents? No! But when the moment came when the servants were called to account for their talents, the Lord let those who had doubled His talents into His joy, but the servant who did not double His talent was cast into the darkness of weeping and gnashing of teeth. That is how it is with grace. God has given all sufficient grace to be saved, However, if one does not work with this grace, he will not enter God’s rest.

Great, thanks alot James248, you had to go and bring the big guns out.:frowning:
Now I feel a need to go to confession:blush:


#1177

[quote="Gabriel_of_12, post:1176, topic:442045"]
Great, thanks alot James248, you had to go and bring the big guns out.:(
Now I feel a need to go to confession:blush:

[/quote]

Forgive me Gabriel of 12. My intent was not to embarrass.


#1178

“Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it” – Proverbs 3:27 KVJ

“If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.” – Deuteronomy 30:10-14 KVJ

“And He said to them, ‘You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God’.” Luke 16:15 NKJV

“For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.” - Galatians 1:10 KJV

“But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.” - Galatians 6:4 KJV

“Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven." - Matthew 6:1 NKJV

Notice: you used your opinion predicated upon 16th century tradition; I used Scripture alone from a Protestant Bible. God love you and bless you, tgGodsway! :slight_smile:


#1179

All through the Gospels we see Jesus doing good works or deeds. We also hear Jesus saying to store up treasures in heaven. We also see Jesus telling parables about doing deeds for others. Jesus also said" if you don’t believe in me then believe in the works I do." Sounds to me it more than just faith that is believing on Christ, we are to do something with that faith. Jesus also said be a light that shines so that those who see your good works will give glory to God the Father. So it seems if we really do understand the NT and also the Epistles we are to do more than just have faith we must also do something with it. To be open to God so he can do His work through us;. we become an instrument of God to use us as he sees fit. Jesus also said do to others as you want other to do to you. If you do nothing to others but say you have faith its not real faith because if you have faith you do for others as you would want others to do for you.


#1180

TgGodsway:

However, for James, good works could play a role to justify one self before men, as in the case of Abraham who offered up his only son on the altar.

AugustTherese:

“And He said to them, ‘You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God’.” Luke 16:15 NKJV

“For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.” - Galatians 1:10 KJV

“But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.” - Galatians 6:4 KJV

“Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven." - Matthew 6:1 NKJV

Notice: you used your opinion predicated upon 16th century tradition; I used Scripture alone from a Protestant Bible. God love you and bless you, tgGodsway!

Good post AugustTherese.

St. James explicitly talks about faith and works in the context of getting saved (“Will his faith SAVE him?”).

St. James mentions NOWHERE this routine about “justification before men” that tgGodsway insists upon.

TgGodsway. Why ignore what St. James says, and say something St. James never says to prop up your “interpretation” of James?


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