JW's: If Jesus is the archangel Michael,then the Messiah in the OT is Michael?


#1

If the JW’s teach Jesus’ is the archangel Michael in human form,then does it mean the Messiah of the OT was a reference to Michael?


#2

They have been coming over to my house for nearly 9 months now, and this subject has yet to come up. I think it is one of the last things they bring up since it is so controversial.


#3

[quote="Nicea325, post:1, topic:286296"]
If the JW's teach Jesus' is the archangel Michael in human form,then does it mean the Messiah of the OT was a reference to Michael?

[/quote]

They don't teach Jesus is Michael in human form....they teach that Jesus was Michael in his preexistence....when he incarnated he became Jesus of Nazareth.


#4

=Nicea325;9353442]If the JW’s teach Jesus’ is the archangel Michael in human form,then does it mean the Messiah of the OT was a reference to Michael?

GREAT Point:thumbsup:

Thank you,
pat /PJM


#5

For one thing, I have not heard their twist on the archangel Michael (Jude 1:9), who could not rebuke the devil, whereas Jesus (Matthew 4:10) Who did rebuke the devil. It is the difference between creation and Creator.


#6

[quote="Publisher, post:3, topic:286296"]
They don't teach Jesus is Michael in human form....they teach that Jesus was Michael in his preexistence....when he incarnated he became Jesus of Nazareth.

[/quote]

Which means he was an archangel,but became man? Since they deny the resurrection does it mean Jesus evaporated into gases,thus Michael also no longer exists?


#7

[quote="Nicea325, post:6, topic:286296"]
Which means he was an archangel,but became man? Since they deny the resurrection does it mean Jesus evaporated into gases,thus Michael also no longer exists?

[/quote]

Since "Micha-el" means "he that is like God" or "he that resembles God" along with the SDA's they embrace this belief....but believing Michael is Jesus in his preexistence is not necessarily to mean the incarnation is denied nor the resurrection since SDA's believe along with Catholics that Jesus is God incarnate and in his bodily resurrection.

I do know the JW's believe in a "spiritual" resurrection..."flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" and "he was raised a life giving Spriit" is a couple of "proof texts" they would use......what happened to his body according to JW's is unknown....it was theorized his body may have disolved into gases...but that isn't an "official" teaching from what I understand.


#8

A bit off topic, but about twenty years ago some younger JWs claimed that Michael Jackson was the archangel Michael!


#9

[quote="Publisher, post:7, topic:286296"]
Since "Micha-el" means "he that is like God" or "he that resembles God" along with the SDA's they embrace this belief....but believing Michael is Jesus in his preexistence is not necessarily to mean the incarnation is denied nor the resurrection since SDA's believe along with Catholics that Jesus is God incarnate and in his bodily resurrection.

I do know the JW's believe in a "spiritual" resurrection..."flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" and "he was raised a life giving Spriit" is a couple of "proof texts" they would use......what happened to his body according to JW's is unknown....it was theorized his body may have disolved into gases...but that isn't an "official" teaching from what I understand.

[/quote]

Nonetheless, since the OT mentions the messiah,how does the archangel Michael come into play? Who is the messiah from the OT to the JW's? Michael? Jesus? Who?


#10

[quote="tabycat, post:8, topic:286296"]
A bit off topic, but about twenty years ago some younger JWs claimed that Michael Jackson was the archangel Michael!

[/quote]

:whacky:


#11

[quote="Nicea325, post:9, topic:286296"]
Nonetheless, since the OT mentions the messiah,how does the archangel Michael come into play? Who is the messiah from the OT to the JW's? Michael? Jesus? Who?

[/quote]

Since the OT isn't real clear on who the messiah is.....since the Jews never considered any one other than a great political figure of great power sent by God to free them from oppression....I'd think there'd be latitude on "who" he is.

That Christians found Jesus of Nazareth the Messiah gave way to a "spiritualized" understanding.

Messiah was always a shadowy figure in the OT....as evidended by reading Daniel and Isaiah.

As throughout the OT the "Angel of the Lord" is portrayed as "God' or at least a "theophany". I can understand how both JW's and SDA's come to that conclusion. The preexistent second Person of the Trinity wasn't Jesus of Nazareth...but Michael...."he that is like God"....most likely a "theophany" of sorts from their perspective.

I don't give a large amount of thought nor really spend any energy trying to disprove who "Michael" was in OT thought.....that the JW's and SDA's believe it and have their reasons and seems to be part of their understanding is enough for me.

My original post was not to seek to prove it one way or another...but to point out the error of the post I addressed....the JW's DO NOT believe "Michael" is Jesus in human form...but the preexistent Christ who became incarnate in Jesus of Nazareth.

I try to understand the belief...whether I accept it as truth or not is beside the point....I find I get further in understanding if I seek to determine the "why's" and "wherefore's" of their beliefs than seeking to compare it to my own and "disprove" it. You of course may find a greater need in disproving it than I....it is not part of my belief system....so for me, there's nothing to "disprove".....I'm seeking understanding...not use it as an "aplogetic" strategy.:)


#12

=Nicea325;9354000]Nonetheless, since the OT mentions the messiah,how does the archangel Michael come into play? Who is the messiah from the OT to the JW's? Michael? Jesus? Who?

So lets exapnd this discussion a bit:)

How does Micahel "fill the Christ role" in light of these passages?

Lk. 1:26-35 **"In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, "Hail, Full of GRACE, the Lord is with you!" But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.* And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus*.... and of his kingdom there will be no end." And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?" **And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.

*John.10: 30 *"I and the Father are one."

NOW HOW DOES ANYONE SWEEZE IN MICHAEL :shrug:

gOD bLESS, PAT /pjm


#13

[quote="PJM, post:12, topic:286296"]
So lets exapnd this discussion a bit:)

How does Micahel "fill the Christ role" in light of these passages?

Lk. 1:26-35 **"In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, "Hail, Full of GRACE, the Lord is with you!" But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.* And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus*.... and of his kingdom there will be no end." And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?" **And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.

*John.10: 30 *"I and the Father are one."

NOW HOW DOES ANYONE SWEEZE IN MICHAEL :shrug:

gOD bLESS, PAT /pjm

[/quote]

Neither the JW's nor SDA's "squeeze" in Michael from the NT...other than perhaps the passage in the Apocalypse addressing "Michael and the angels" battling the Great Dragon...but use OT passages to determine the preexistent Christ is addressed as Michael in the OT.


#14

=Publisher;9354067]Neither the JW's nor SDA's "squeeze" in Michael from the NT...other than perhaps the passage in the Apocalypse addressing "Michael and the angels" battling the Great Dragon...but use OT passages to determine the preexistent Christ is addressed as Michael in the OT.

Are you saying that they do not hold to teaching that Christ is Michael reincarnated?

Nice to talk with you again my friend,

pat /PJM


#15

[quote="PJM, post:14, topic:286296"]
Are you saying that they do not hold to teaching that Christ is Michael reincarnated?

Nice to talk with you again my friend,

pat /PJM

[/quote]

Definitely not....they believe Michael is another persona/term for the prexistent Christ who INCARNATED as Jesus of Nazareth.

You too friend.


#16

=Publisher;9354035]Since the OT isn’t real clear on who the messiah is…since the Jews never considered any one other than a great political figure of great power sent by God to free them from oppression…I’d think there’d be latitude on “who” he is.

That Christians found Jesus of Nazareth the Messiah gave way to a “spiritualized” understanding.

Messiah was always a shadowy figure in the OT…as evidended by reading Daniel and Isaiah.

My original post was not to seek to prove it one way or another…but to point out the error of the post I addressed…the JW’s DO NOT believe “Michael” is Jesus in human form…but the preexistent Christ who became incarnate in Jesus of Nazareth.

I try to understand the belief…whether I accept it as truth or not is beside the point…I find I get further in understanding if I seek to determine the “why’s” and “wherefore’s” of their beliefs than seeking to compare it to my own and “disprove” it. You of course may find a greater need in disproving it than I…it is not part of my belief system…so for me, there’s nothing to “disprove”…I’m seeking understanding…not use it as an “aplogetic” strategy.:slight_smile:

Prophesies regarding Christ [see prophesies of Christ Document]

In the imagery of the prophets, “spirit” and “fire” were associated with purification and restoration. The Old Testament prophets warned of a purifying fire that would refine the souls of God’s people by burning away what was impure and purifying the souls of the repentant sinner (Is 4:4; 66:24; Joel 2:30; Zech 13:9; Mal 3:2-4/4:1). They also promised an outpouring of the Spirit of God when God came to redeem His people (Is 32:15; 31:31-34; 40:24;41:16; 44:3;Jer 4:11-16; 23:19; 30:23: 31:31-34; Ez 13:11; 36:25-27; 39:29;Joel 2:28-29). These were prophecies that were very familiar to the people

Isaiah 7:14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Matthew 1:22-23: All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: ‘The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel’–which means, ‘God with us.’

Micah 5:2: But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.

Hosea 11:1: When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

Matthew 2:14-15 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: ‘Out of Egypt I called my son.’

Isaiah 9:6-7: For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.

**Wisdom 2: 12-22 ** “Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training. He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord. He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father. Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected.” Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray, for their wickedness blinded them, and they did not know the secret purposes of God, nor hope for the wages of holiness, nor discern the prize for blameless souls"

God Bless
pat/PJM


#17

I understand the Christian understanding of the messianic prophesies…but as I understand…these aren’t necessarily messianic prophesies as understood in Jewish thought…they were “appropriated” by Christians who sought to use OT scripture to “prove” the long awaited Messiah was Jesus of Nazareth…and relayed "events’ of his life in the gospels as “proof”…“prophesy historicized” so to speak.

When watching a program on Nostradamas, one commentator said…“What is the use of prophesy when the only way the prophesies can be understood to mean what they now claim to have meant is AFTER the fact?”

I see the churches claims as they sought to incorporate the OT passages into early Christian belief and ascribe meaning to OT passages to the messiah…that they previously never addressed.


#18

[quote="Publisher, post:11, topic:286296"]
Since the OT isn't real clear on who the messiah is.....since the Jews never considered any one other than a great political figure of great power sent by God to free them from oppression....I'd think there'd be latitude on "who" he is.

That Christians found Jesus of Nazareth the Messiah gave way to a "spiritualized" understanding.

Messiah was always a shadowy figure in the OT....as evidended by reading Daniel and Isaiah.

As throughout the OT the "Angel of the Lord" is portrayed as "God' or at least a "theophany". I can understand how both JW's and SDA's come to that conclusion. The preexistent second Person of the Trinity wasn't Jesus of Nazareth...but Michael...."he that is like God"....most likely a "theophany" of sorts from their perspective.

I don't give a large amount of thought nor really spend any energy trying to disprove who "Michael" was in OT thought.....that the JW's and SDA's believe it and have their reasons and seems to be part of their understanding is enough for me.

My original post was not to seek to prove it one way or another...but to point out the error of the post I addressed....the JW's DO NOT believe "Michael" is Jesus in human form...but the preexistent Christ who became incarnate in Jesus of Nazareth.

I try to understand the belief...whether I accept it as truth or not is beside the point....I find I get further in understanding if I seek to determine the "why's" and "wherefore's" of their beliefs than seeking to compare it to my own and "disprove" it. You of course may find a greater need in disproving it than I....it is not part of my belief system....so for me, there's nothing to "disprove".....I'm seeking understanding...not use it as an "aplogetic" strategy.:)

[/quote]

Yes..the archangel who incarnated as the man Jesus. Right?


#19

[quote="Nicea325, post:18, topic:286296"]
Yes..the archangel who incarnated as the man Jesus. Right?

[/quote]

Exactly....not my belief...but I do understand the "why's" and "wherefores" in a very limited way according to JW and SDA belief...they pay much attention to Daniel, where Michael is a chief figure I believe.


#20

[quote="Publisher, post:17, topic:286296"]
I understand the Christian understanding of the messianic prophesies...but as I understand....these aren't necessarily messianic prophesies as understood in Jewish thought.....they were "appropriated" by Christians who sought to use OT scripture to "prove" the long awaited Messiah was Jesus of Nazareth.....and relayed "events' of his life in the gospels as "proof"...."prophesy historicized" so to speak.

When watching a program on Nostradamas, one commentator said.."What is the use of prophesy when the only way the prophesies can be understood to mean what they now claim to have meant is AFTER the fact?"

I see the churches claims as they sought to incorporate the OT passages into early Christian belief and ascribe meaning to OT passages to the messiah...that they previously never addressed.

[/quote]

AFTER fact? Well isn't that one aspect of what a prophecy is? A prediction of future events,thus it must be fulfilled in order to meet the criteria?

Didn't Jesus tell the 12 about His passion,death and resurrection? Had to happen in order for them to understand its fulfillment.


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