Khalfan : corruption


#1

Khalfan

In a previous post, you said

God preserved his message, his guidence for mankind by appointing prophets one after another, sometimes two or three together, to different people, in different part of the world. When the books and people got currepted by time, God replaced the true message by another prophet. According to Islam, more than 124000 prophets came until Mohamed (pbuh). They all were preaching the same message of One God, to worship him only and to follow the prophets (by the people to whom the respected prophets came), in their life to have eternal life in heaven. I will talk about the books in your thread.

My question is :

124000 prophets : their messages got corrupt but Muhammad’s not? why?

Both Jews and Christians corrupt but Muslims not?why?

Does Muhammad in the Quran say, explicitely, that the previous books were corrupt, must not be read and must be rejected?

Am interested in what the Quran has to say. Please only refer to the Quran/hadith to explain to us about the corruption and not to what scholar x or y says either about Islam or Christianity :slight_smile:

PS: to all : it is easy to go offtopic. Kindly refrain from answering any post that is not about what the Quran/hadith has to say about the Bible.


#2

BUMP

Khalfan, we’re waiting for your reply!

Vickie


#3

Another bump for Ibn Taymiya :slight_smile:


#4

I’ll post about what the Quran/hadith has to say about the Bible.

WHAT PROOF CAN YOU PROVIDE THAT PROVES ANY OF THE QURAN/HADITH’S ALLEGATIONS ABOUT CORRUPTION.

In a word, proof, not assertions.


#5

What bump InJesus?
The Quran says:
44. Surely, WE sent down the Torah wherein was guidance and light. By it did the Prophets, who were obedient to US, judge for the Jews, as did the godly people and those learned in the Law, because they were required to preserve the Book of ALLAH, and because they were guardians over it. . (Holy Quran 5:44)

The Quran says that God left preserving their books to their honesty, and that’s the same order in Deu 4:2. Now let’s see what the Quran and Sunna told about this.

God said in the Quran within talking about the Jews:
79. Woe, therefore, to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, `This is from ALLAH,’ That they may take it for a paltry price. Woe, then, to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn.( Holy Quran 2:79)

And this is what Ibn Abbas, a disciple of the Prophet(Peace be upon him) understood:
"O Muslims! How could you ask the People of the Book about anything, while the Book of Allah (Qur’an) that He revealed to His Prophet is the most recent Book from Him and you still read it fresh and young, Allah told you that the People of the Book altered the Book of Allah, changed it and wrote another book with their own hands. They then said, `This book is from Allah,’ so that they acquired a small profit by it. Hasn’t the knowledge that came to you prohibited you from asking them By Allah! We have not seen any of them asking you about what was revealed to you.’’(Bukhari)

Now let’s see what the Prophet (Peace be upon him) said:
“The sons of Israel wrote a book whom they followed, and left the Torah” (Sunan Al Darimi)

He also said in Bukhari:
Do not believe the People of the Book and do not deny them. Say: "We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to you. Our God and your God is One, and to Him we have submitted.’’

And said in Abu Dawood:

The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Whatever the people of the Book tell you, do not verify them, nor falsify them, but say: We believe in Allah and His Apostle. If it is false, do not confirm it, and if it is right, do not falsify it.

And this was also what was understood by Mu’awiyah, a disciple of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) who was talking concerning Ka’b, a rabbi who became a Muslim:
He was one of the most truthful of those who narrated from the People of the Book, even though we found that some of what he said might be lies.’(Bukhari)

This means that Ka’b didn’t intend to lie, but he was telling what was interpolated by the People of the book.

The Quran clearly rejects many concepts in the Bible as crucifixion, saying that God rests or that Aaron worshipped the calf. So it’s clear that these hadiths refer to the books of the people of the book as well as what they say, because they actually say from their books.


#6

In other words “I won’t answer your question BUT you should answer mine!”


#7

This just says that it did happen, not why!


#8

#9

Now let’s see what the Prophet (Peace be upon him) said:
“The sons of Israel wrote a book whom they followed, and left the Torah”

leaving the Torah does not mean corrupting it.

It is what Jesus refers to when He says :you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: ‘these people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’" Matthew 15:1-3.

Muhammad is simply repeating what Jesus told SOME of the pharisee, and not all Jews.

He also said in Bukhari:
Do not believe the People of the Book and do not deny them. Say: "We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to you. Our God and your God is One, and to Him we have submitted.’’

the hadith starts with :

Narrated Abu Huraira: "The people of the Book used to read the Torah **IN HEBREW **and then **explain it IN ARABIC TO THE MUSLIMS. **. Muhammad was questioning the interpretation, not the validity of scriptures because he said :we believe in **WHATEVER IS REVEALED TO YOU **…

And this was also what was understood by Mu’awiyah, a disciple of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) who was talking concerning Ka’b, a rabbi who became a Muslim:
He was one of the most truthful of those who narrated from the People of the Book, even though we found that some of what he said might be lies.’(Bukhari)

again, it has to do with narrations.


#10

As for the prophets, of course they are not the interpolators, but for the others, they can corrupt. As for Issa (Peace be upon him), of course he didn’t reach the corrupt Torah, but he taught the Torah pure from any interpolations.
I didn’t say that all Israelites are corrupt, of course there are righteous, but they are not much, and the verse you gave was talking about those who became Muslims.

  1. And indeed WE sent Noah and Abraham, and WE placed among their seed Prophethood and the Book. So some of them followed the guidance, but many of them were rebellious.

  2. And if the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, WE would surely have removed from them their evils and WE would surely have admitted them into Gardens of bliss.

  3. And if they had observed the Torah and the Gospel and what has been now sent down to them from their Lord, they would, surely, have eaten of good things from above them and from under their feet. **Among them are a people who are moderate; but many of them are such that evil is what they do. **

Besides, I didn’t say that all scriptures are corrupt, but there are true mixed with false scriptures.

Yes, it is speaking about corrupting the scriptures, God didn’t point to the illiterate people as already know nothing, for God would refer to them in this verse, but this was talking about those Jews who added from their book, and this is what Ibn Abbas understood from the verse, as for the other commentary by Ibn Abbas you mentioned, if you went down a paragraph, you’ll find Ibn Kathir explaining what he and Wahb meant:

Ibn Abi Hatim recorded this statement. However, if Wahb meant the books that are currently in the hands of the People of the Book, then we should state that there is no doubt that they altered, distorted, added to and deleted from them. For instance, the Arabic versions of these books contain tremendous error, many additions and deletions and enormous misinterpretation. Those who rendered these translations have incorrect comprehension in most, rather, all of these translations. If Wahb meant the Books of Allah that He has with Him, then indeed, these Books are preserved and were never changed.

And this is understood more by the other quote of Ibn Abbas that he meant that.


#11

I didn’t object that the Jews also misinterpreted their scriptures, as they made both, again we don’t believe that all the Torah and Gospel were corrupted, but there are still some true and false scripts.
BTW, do you have an evidence that the Arab Jews at the time of Muhammad(Peace be upon him) in Arabia used the same Bible you have? What is your evidence that the Torah meant by the Quran is the Pentateuch or that the Gospel meant by the Quran are the four Gospels?

And that doesn’t mean that the Pentateuch is the real Torah, it could be that book which Muhammad (Peace be upon him) told about. It is your claim that the Pentateuch is the Torah.

That also doesn’t mean that the Torah present in Hebrew was the one you have, and even it was the one you have, the hadith doesn’t say that it wasn’t corrupted, as the Quran clearly gives that same concept of the hadith, when it accepts some of what the Bible says, and rejects some, and keeps silent on some. So we believe the Quran, and this makes us know that the hadith is general and that there are interpolations in the Torah.

What narrations you mean?


#12

#13

#14

Those who follow the Messenger (Mohammed), the unlettered Prophet whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them . 7:157

The Torah and Gospel Jews and Christians had was valid during Muhammad’s time. The thing is that it was the same before Muhammad and after Muhammad which means it was the same during Muhammad’s time.

And when there cometh unto them (Jews) a Scripture (the Qur’an) from Allah, confirming that in their possession (2:89)

Allah will not confirm corrupt scriptures.

How come they (come) unto thee (Muhammad) for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)? (5:43)

Jews have guidance in their scriptures.

Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers. (5:47

likewise.
**
Say: “O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord” (5:71). **

How can the Jew or Christian, stand fast by the Law and the Gospel, if the Law and the Gospel have been corrupted ? Again, the assumption of the Qur’an is that the scriptures that the Christians and Jews have is the reliable word of God.

**
Say: “Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth”** (3:93). How can a Jew bring the Law and study it to determine the truth if it has been corrupted ?

Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (to practice it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? (2:44).

Christians and Jews could not teach and obey their scriptures if their scriptures were corrupted.

If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee (10:94).
Thus this earlier scripture must have been preserved to make such a request.

The same scriptures Muhammad ask Jews and Christians to refer to PREDATE Muhammad.This is simply history.

If you say that the Torah is ONLY what Moses wrote and hence the writing of other prophets are additions, please refer to this hadith:

Narrated Ata bin Yasar:

I met Abdullah bin 'Amr bin Al-'As and asked him, “Tell me about the description of Allah’s Apostle which is mentioned IN THE TORAH (i.e. OLD TESTAMENT).” He replied, "Yes. By Allah, he is described IN TORAH with some of the qualities attributed to him in the Quran as follows:

‘O Prophet! We have sent you as a witness (for Allah’s True religion) And a giver of glad tidings (to the faithful believers), And a warner (to the unbelievers) And guardian of the illiterates. You are My slave and My messenger (i.e. Apostle). I have named you “Al-Mutawakkil” (who depends upon Allah). You are neither discourteous, harsh nor a noise-maker in the markets. And you do not do evil to those who do evil to you, but you deal with them with forgiveness and kindness. Allah will not let him (the Prophet) die till he makes straight the crooked people by making them say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,” with which will be opened blind eyes and deaf ears and enveloped hearts.’" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 34, Number 335)

This hadith is not found in any of Moses’ writings but in Isaiah 42:1-3


#15

No, they became Muslims when Muhammad (Peace be upon him) came. I didn’t reject Ibn Abbas’ argument, he was interpreting the verse you gave, so he was talking about something particular, which is misinterpretation, Ibn Kathir clarified what he meant by saying no one can eleminate from God’s word, he was talking about God’s word in Heaven, and the other hadith clearly asserts that meaning.

First of all, the verse doesn’t necessarily speak about the present tense, and even if, as the case with the other verse, besides, the verse doesn’t mean that they were preserved if it was talking in the past. If it was talking about the time of Muhammad (Peace be upon him), then it will be telling about following the prophecies about Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and worshipping God only, since this was the main context about what God tells the people of the book in the Quran. I used this verse to prove for you that the Quran tells that most of people of the book are corrupt, this is what we believe.

This was what the verse was talking about. That doesn’t negate the other types of interpolation.

These are the copies you show for people, but I am sure that many others were suppressed, don’t forget that your books were suppressed by the Catholic Church, and no one used to read it, till Luther came, and don’t forget that after Nicea council, many gospels were banned and eliminated, it could have happened also that the Jews had a common benefit with Christians about rejecting Muhammad (Peace be upon him) especially that we already see tests made by some Jews and Christians to see if Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was really the foretold prophet or not, these tests are not present in the Bible, I also see early Muslim scholars quoting scriptures that are not in the Bible today, and it may have been that the full Torah and Gospel are present now and hidden anywhere. I even saw a Yemeni Rabbi who came in the news about 3 months ago telling that he has a copy from the original Torah that clearly foretells about Muhammad (Peace be upon him), all this makes me sure that there is a hidden secret about this. But as for your Bible, it’s very clear for me that it is corrupted, yes it still has some true scripts remaining from the original Torah, and some allusions to foretelling about Muhammad (Peace be upon him), but there is much evidence that there are corruptions and interpolations within it. If you’d like to talk about that issue, I have no problem.

But this wasn’t the case with that man, as he is well-known to be righteous, he was transmitting things that he thought they were from God, but they were not. And again the Quran also tells that the Bible is interpolated by rejecting many things within it.
[/quote]


#16

there is no single reason to reject that this is the truth because if Jesus taught that previous scriptures were corrupt, His disciples woulddn’t have quoted them, explained them and refered to them. The wouldnt have used them to convince people that He is the Messiah.The NT is full of OT quotes. Our Tradition is full of OT quotes. and not surprisingly, our Bible’s first section IS the OT.

No, they became Muslims when Muhammad (Peace be upon him) came.

in my previous post, i quoted verses where Muhammad was dealing with JEWS, not Jews who became Muslims. He told them to study, refer and judge by their scriptures.

I didn’t reject Ibn Abbas’ argument, he was interpreting the verse you gave, so he was talking about something particular, which is misinterpretation, Ibn Kathir clarified what he meant by saying no one can eleminate from God’s word, he was talking about God’s word in Heaven

, and the other hadith clearly asserts that meaning. and do you really think that this point is open to debate? of course no one can corrupt anything in heaven.

Al-Bukhari reported that Ibn 'Abbas said that the Ayah means they alter and add although none among Allah’s creation CAN REMOVE THE WORDS OF ALLAH FROM HIS BOOKS, THEY ALTER AND DISTORT THEIR APPARENT MEANINGS.

they do not remove the words of Allah from his books in heaven but they alter their meaning in heaven? no, the same sentence is talking about the earth.

Wahb bin Munabbih said, “The Tawrah and Injil REMAIN AS ALLAH REVEALED THEM, AND NO LETTER IN THEM WAS REMOVED. However, the people misguide others by addition and false interpretation, relying on books that they wrote themselves.”

Allah revealed them on earth. The people misguide by their tradition. The Jews do NOT touch the Torah. They interpret and add in their Talmud. And if we suppose they added in their Torah, how then do Christians have the same OT that Jesus never questioned but affirmed, refered to, taught, explained and fulfilled?

One of the quotes of talmud found in the Quran, and which is the interpretation of Torah is : who has killed a soul as if he has killed humanity ( or something of the like). This is a rabbinical interpretation of a Torah passage in Genesis, yet Muhammad thought it is written in the Torah.

<they say: “This is from Allah,” but it is not from Allah;>

As for Allah’s books, **THEY ARE STILL **PRESERVED AND CANNOT BE CHANGED." Ibn Abi Hatim recorded this statement.

Still = here on earth because am not aware of any claim that someone tried to corrupt anything in heaven.

First of all, the verse doesn’t necessarily speak about the present tense, and even if, as the case with the other verse, besides, the verse doesn’t mean that they were preserved if it was talking in the past. If it was talking about the time of Muhammad (Peace be upon him), then it will be telling about following the prophecies about Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and worshipping God only, since this was the main context about what God tells the people of the book in the Quran. I used this verse to prove for you that the Quran tells that most of people of the book are corrupt, this is what we believe.

the verse has nothing to do with corruption, to begin with. The verse is talking about not following the scriptures. The OT as well says all people are corrupt. This has nothing to do with corruption. And why is it that all people are corrupt but Muslims no?

These are the copies you show for people, but I am sure that many others were suppressed, don’t forget that your books were suppressed by the Catholic Church, and no one used to read it, till Luther came, and don’t forget that after Nicea council, many gospels were banned and eliminated

,wooooow where did you get your history from? a thread is surely needed for such a huge historical mistake.

it could have happened also that the Jews had a common benefit with Christians about rejecting Muhammad (Peace be upon him)

what! what is this conspiracy theory about?? the Bible , OT and NT has been established looooong time before Muhammad was even born and it is the same we have now. In what time in history did Jews and Christians sit together?surely after Muhammad showed up. How come if what we have PREDATES Muhammad from the Jewish part AND Christian part? you surely cannot assume that ALL Jews and Christians sat together and corrupted the million Torah found on all our planet in exactly the same way! please logic and history.
[/quote]


#17

especially that we already see tests made by some Jews and Christians to see if Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was really the foretold prophet or not, these tests are not present in the Bible,

what tests? and which Jews and Christians are you talking about?and why should the tests be in the Bible? it’s not a test book.

I also see early Muslim scholars quoting scriptures that are not in the Bible today,

the ones they refer to are in the Bible, like Isaiah, or John’s paraclete. Any other passages are more than appreciated. I remember as well about the “unlettered prophet” foretold in the OT. Muhammad failed to realize that it was a prophecy of a FALSE prophet.

and it may have been that the full Torah and Gospel are present now and hidden anywhere.

are they corrupt or sound but “hidden”? make up your mind. You threw another conspiracy theory that cannot be reconciled neither logically nor historically. Hidden by who? and when? and how can Jews and Christians hide all the Torahs and gospels from the planet when the ones we have now predate Muhamad by hundreds of years?

I even saw a Yemeni Rabbi who came in the news about 3 months ago telling that he has a copy from the original Torah that clearly foretells about Muhammad (Peace be upon him), all this makes me sure that there is a hidden secret about this.

do you believe anything you hear? many people claim to have hidden books and revelations. Joseph Smith claimed he was visited by Gabriel who gave him the true teachings, just like Muhammad. So where is the proof of the Yamani rabbi?


#18

Thanks and excellent posts.


#19

Because Quran is preserved by God himself.

Both Jews and Christians corrupt but Muslims not? why?

Not all the Jews or Christins are corrupt. Just a misunderstanding.

Does Muhammad in the Quran say, explicitely, that the previous books were corrupt, must not be read and must be rejected?

Am interested in what the Quran has to say. Please only refer to the Quran/hadith to explain to us about the corruption and not to what scholar x or y says either about Islam or Christianity :slight_smile:

PS: to all : it is easy to go offtopic. Kindly refrain from answering any post that is not about what the Quran/hadith has to say about the Bible.

The answers are already given and under discussion.

Further more, what you will be trying to prove is Bible is the compilation of Torah, Zaboor and Injeel and it is preserved till now as it was revealed. Please remeber, you don’t have even two similar versions of Bible to say, it is the accurate copy. Each and every book in the Bible is assumed of writers except the 14/27 books of NT. We still find clear evidences for addition and modification throughout the Bible. You have already confirmed 4 books as apocrypha which was inspired and undoubtful in the first Bible. Process of throwing out chapters and verses are still going on. So, unless and until you have a TRUE copy of scripture as it was originally written, which your church already proved impossible, Quran’s claim of corrupting the scripture will live forever.


#20

And the Koran says this! Proof by circular reasoning.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.