Interview: Calif. Pro-Lifer Targets Apathetic Local Churches for Pro-Life Message
This story should probably be in some other forum. There is nothing in this article about the Catholic Church.
So contact a mod and ask for it to be moved,
I liked that article, we need more Todd Bullis’s in this world…
How is this not a catholic issue? Are we not for life at all stages? Have it moved but there are those of us who will still fight for what we believe in and what our faith to the church has made clear to us. I ask you again, how is this not a catholic issue?
It is an interesting article. I am torn with my reaction to the person’s approach because it is good to remind people that if they call themselves Christians, they can not support abortions considering Jesus was not born in what would have been considered a traditionally ideal situation, and we recognize his physical life beginning with conception at the Annunciation. Considering many Christians don’t take the reality of their faith that seriously, I see the protest as being appropriate. At the same time, it suggests to others outside of that particular church that the Pastor is actually supporting abortion, so in that case, it does seem to be slanderous without knowing if that is truly the case. I could see talking directly to the pastor to encourage him to speak about the subject as possibly being a better approach. All that being said, it appears as though the churches reacted poorly as well. .
some of us have to be ,er,"by the book"and like to …never mind.Like Thumper’s Mother said if you can’t say anything nice don’t say anything at all:rolleyes:.Of course its a Catholic issue.
I understand that some Christian denominations teach against abortion, but please realize that many Christian denominations do not share that view.
I don’t think we should get into the game as to who is a “real” Christian - as you probably are aware, many Protestants don’t regard Catholics as being Christian. I disagree with them, of course, but I think it points out the problem of announcing who is a “real” Christian, and denouncing who they consider is not.
I am aware that not all Christian churches are willing to say that abortion is wrong, but I also see it as being incomplete in their thinking. Incomplete thinking does not necessarily label someone as not being a “real Christian.” Many Protestants do not have an accurate understanding of Catholics, so not considering them to be Christian is more due to misinformation than reality.
The thing that I like about the protest is that it confronts people with the reality that faith should play a part in their decisions beyond their Sunday schedule. The thing I didn’t like - is protesting at churches if he didn’t know anything about it beyond the lack of support for crisis pregnancy centers. If that were the case, I wish he would have chosen the approach of raising money for the centers outside of the church - that would have helped the centers while confronting people with the issue. But how much he knew is essentially information that is not in the article - unless I missed it somehow.
How is not the defence of life not “Christian?” So Protostants don’t believe “Catholics” are christian, so what! No one is denouncing anyone of being unchristian here. Tell you the truth I am sick of this whole side bar, do all we can to confuse this issue discussion. How is not telling the truth not christian and not catholic?
Ok, will spell it out better for you here, Protestants that believe in abortions, not Christian…
How can one believe in abortion? what makes it good? is that why you are against the signs that show it for what it is? I never said that Protestants were not Christians, I think that those who think that abortion is somehow “ok” look again at what we both believe the bible has to say on what “love” is.
I have a bumper sticker that reads 'You CAN’T be Catholic and be Pro-Abortion"The same thing goes for non-Catholic Christians .To say otherwise is the antithesis of Christianity as it worships Relativism and not the Truth who is He.
Take no prisoners on this one folks and don’t worry about offending ANYONE.Christ said if you deny me(truth)I will deny you to the Father.
Of course, you are entitled to believe that. However, many Christians would disagree with you, since Christ never talked about abortion.
I think the whole “you’re not a real…whatever” is unproductive since it relies on criteria which is not shared by the group being criticized.
Pure relativism Dale and certainly not worthy of you.How about Thou shalt not Kill.
The Catholic Church has always condemned abortion as a grave evil. Christian writers from the first-century author of the Didache to Pope John Paul II in his encyclical Evangelium Vitae (“The Gospel of Life”) have maintained that the Bible forbids abortion, just as it forbids murder. This tract will provide some examples of this consistent witness from the writings of the Fathers of the Church.
As the early Christian writer Tertullian pointed out, the law of Moses ordered strict penalties for causing an abortion. We read, “If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [Hebrew: “so that her child comes out”], but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot” (Ex. 21:22–24).
This applies the lex talionis or “law of retribution” to abortion. The lex talionis establishes the just punishment for an injury (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life, compared to the much greater retributions that had been common before, such as life for eye, life for tooth, lives of the offender’s family for one life).
The lex talionis would already have been applied to a woman who was injured in a fight. The distinguishing point in this passage is that a pregnant woman is hurt “so that her child comes out”; the child is the focus of the lex talionis in this passage. Aborted babies must have justice, too.
This is because they, like older children, have souls, even though marred by original sin. David tells us, “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me” (Ps. 51:5, NIV). Since sinfulness is a spiritual rather than a physical condition, David must have had a spiritual nature from the time of conception.
The same is shown in James 2:26, which tells us that “the body without the spirit is dead”: The soul is the life-principle of the human body. Since from the time of conception the child’s body is alive (as shown by the fact it is growing), the child’s body must already have its spirit.
Thus, in 1995 Pope John Paul II declared that the Church’s teaching on abortion “is unchanged and unchangeable. Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his successors . . . I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written word of God, is transmitted by the Church’s tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal magisterium. No circumstance, no purpose, no law whatsoever can ever make licit an act which is intrinsically illicit, since it is contrary to the law of God which is written in every human heart, knowable by reason itself, and proclaimed by the Church” (Evangelium Vitae 62).
The early Church Fathers agreed. Fortunately, abortion, like all sins, is forgivable; and forgiveness is as close as the nearest confessional.
“The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child” (Didache 2:1–2 [A.D. 70]).
The Letter of Barnabas
“The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. The knowledge, therefore, which is given to us for the purpose of walking in this way, is the following. . . . Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born” (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).
The Apocalypse of Peter
“And near that place I saw another strait place . . . and there sat women. . . . And over against them many children who were born to them out of due time sat crying. And there came forth from them rays of fire and smote the women in the eyes. And these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion” (The Apocalypse of Peter 25 [A.D. 137]).
“What man of sound mind, therefore, will affirm, while such is our character, that we are murderers?
. . . [W]hen we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion commit murder, and will have to give an account to God for the abortion, on what principle should we commit murder? For it does not belong to the same person to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God’s care, and when it has passed into life, to kill it; and not to expose an infant, because those who expose them are chargeable with child-murder, and on the other hand, when it has been reared to destroy it” (A Plea for the Christians 35 [A.D. 177]).
“In our case, a murder being once for all forbidden, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb, while as yet the human being derives blood from the other parts of the body for its sustenance. To hinder a birth is merely a speedier man-killing; nor does it matter whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that is coming to birth. That is a man which is going to be one; you have the fruit already in its seed” (Apology 9:8 [A.D. 197]).
"Among surgeons’ tools there is a certain instrument, which is formed with a nicely-adjusted flexible frame for opening the uterus first of all and keeping it open; it is further furnished with an annular blade, by means of which the limbs [of the child] within the womb are dissected with anxious but unfaltering care; its last appendage being a blunted or covered hook, wherewith the entire fetus is extracted by a violent delivery.
"There is also [another instrument in the shape of] a copper needle or spike, by which the actual death is managed in this furtive robbery of life: They give it, from its infanticide function, the name of embruosphaktes, [meaning] “the slayer of the infant,” which of course was alive. . . .
“[The doctors who performed abortions] all knew well enough that a living being had been conceived, and [they] pitied this most luckless infant state, which had first to be put to death, to escape being tortured alive” (The Soul 25 [A.D. 210]).
“Now we allow that life begins with conception because we contend that the soul also begins from conception; life taking its commencement at the same moment and place that the soul does” (ibid., 27).
“The law of Moses, indeed, punishes with due penalties the man who shall cause abortion [Ex. 21:22–24]” (ibid., 37).
“There are some [pagan] women who, by drinking medical preparations, extinguish the source of the future man in their very bowels and thus commit a parricide before they bring forth. And these things assuredly come down from the teaching of your [false] gods. . . . To us [Christians] it is not lawful either to see or hear of homicide” (Octavius 30 [A.D. 226]).
“Women who were reputed to be believers began to take drugs to render themselves sterile, and to bind themselves tightly so as to expel what was being conceived, since they would not, on account of relatives and excess wealth, want to have a child by a slave or by any insignificant person. See, then, into what great impiety that lawless one has proceeded, by teaching adultery and murder at the same time!” (Refutation of All Heresies [A.D. 228]).
Council of Ancyra
“Concerning women who commit fornication, and destroy that which they have conceived, or who are employed in making drugs for abortion, a former decree excluded them until the hour of death, and to this some have assented. Nevertheless, being desirous to use somewhat greater lenity, we have ordained that they fulfill ten years [of penance], according to the prescribed degrees” (canon 21 [A.D. 314]).
Basil the Great
“Let her that procures abortion undergo ten years’ penance, whether the embryo were perfectly formed, or not” (First Canonical Letter, canon 2 [A.D. 374]).
“He that kills another with a sword, or hurls an axe at his own wife and kills her, is guilty of willful murder; not he who throws a stone at a dog, and unintentionally kills a man, or who corrects one with a rod, or scourge, in order to reform him, or who kills a man in his own defense, when he only designed to hurt him. But the man, or woman, is a murderer that gives a philtrum, if the man that takes it dies upon it; so are they who take medicines to procure abortion; and so are they who kill on the highway, and rapparees” (ibid., canon 8).
“Wherefore I beseech you, flee fornication. . . . Why sow where the ground makes it its care to destroy the fruit?—where there are many efforts at abortion?—where there is murder before the birth? For even the harlot you do not let continue a mere harlot, but make her a murderess also. You see how drunkenness leads to prostitution, prostitution to adultery, adultery to murder; or rather to a something even worse than murder. For I have no name to give it, since it does not take off the thing born, but prevents its being born. Why then do thou abuse the gift of God, and fight with his laws, and follow after what is a curse as if a blessing, and make the chamber of procreation a chamber for murder, and arm the woman that was given for childbearing unto slaughter? For with a view to drawing more money by being agreeable and an object of longing to her lovers, even this she is not backward to do, so heaping upon thy head a great pile of fire. For even if the daring deed be hers, yet the causing of it is thine” (Homilies on Romans 24 [A.D. 391]).
“I cannot bring myself to speak of the many virgins who daily fall and are lost to the bosom of the Church, their mother. . . . Some go so far as to take potions, that they may insure barrenness, and thus murder human beings almost before their conception. Some, when they find themselves with child through their sin, use drugs to procure abortion, and when, as often happens, they die with their offspring, they enter the lower world laden with the guilt not only of adultery against Christ but also of suicide and child murder” (Letters 22:13 [A.D. 396]).
The Apostolic Constitutions
“Thou shalt not use magic. Thou shalt not use witchcraft; for he says, ‘You shall not suffer a witch to live’ [Ex. 22:18]. Thou shall not slay thy child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. . . . *f it be slain, [it] shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed” (Apostolic Constitutions 7:3 [A.D. 400]).
NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
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permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
The Church Is Christ’s Body and Voice on Earth,so yes,Jesus does condemn abortion.*
But that assumes the premise which is in dispute.
Christian denominations which do not forbid abortion do so because they do not agree that a unique human person occurs at the moment of conception. I am not asking that you agree with this, simply that you acknowledge that this issue is disputed within Christianity.
Which Christian denomination(s) are pro abortion?