Last Supper


#1

So in Matthew 26:17 On the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Where do you want us to make the preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

How could Christ have eaten Passover, before passover and, die before passover to be the passover lamb? The time line is hard to follow. Can any one help me out here?


#2

[quote="jcsmid7, post:1, topic:331095"]
So in Matthew 26:17 On the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Where do you want us to make the preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

How could Christ have eaten Passover, before passover and, die before passover to be the passover lamb? The time line is hard to follow. Can any one help me out here?

[/quote]

The lambs sacrificed for the first Passover were killed before the actual Passover, if they were not killed until the actual visitation of the angel of death, it would have been too late for every firstborn son. So, Christ, the lamb of God, like the paschal lambs, could and should die before Passover to fulfill the scriptures.

Peace and all good!


#3

Yes I am aware still does not answer how he could have passover meal before passover?


#4

Read John 13

[BIBLEDRB]John 13:1-5[/BIBLEDRB]

This seems to indicate that the Last Supper was the night before the usual celebration of the Passover meal.


#5

Please explain I don't see how it relates? More over it says the the day before so it is still before. How can this be that He did this before it should have been done? It is like calling Christmas Dec22.


#6

[quote="jcsmid7, post:5, topic:331095"]
Please explain I don't see how it relates? More over it says the the day before so it is still before. How can this be that He did this before it should have been done? It is like calling Christmas Dec22.

[/quote]

How I understand it, since Jesus knew that he would die before being able to celebrate the Passover meal, he celebrated it the night before with his disciples offering himself up as the Passover sacrifice giving his body and blood.


#7

I like your thinking. Where might I find Church teaching on this or text in scripture? I am sorry to push. I am wrestling my self and a tradition of the Church and wish to understand. Thanks for the help.


#8

That question is one that biblical scholars still argue over. Pope Benedict even devotes a section of his second volume of "Jesus of Nazareth" (Chapter Five, Part 1) to discussing the issue. So you're in good company to have the question. :)

There are a few explanations. Some say the Last Supper was not a Passover meal. Some say Jesus was simply "jumping the gun" so to speak and celebrating it early. Some attribute it to the differing calendars between various sects of 1st century Judaism (the Essene Jews had a different calendar and celebrated the Passover always on the same day of the week).

So take your pick. :)

I know that's probably not a fully satisfying answer. But this remains a somewhat open question at the moment.


#9

[quote="jcsmid7, post:7, topic:331095"]
I like your thinking. Where might I find Church teaching on this or text in scripture? I am sorry to push. I am wrestling my self and a tradition of the Church and wish to understand. Thanks for the help.

[/quote]

I really would recommend Pope Benedict's "Jesus of Nazareth" to get a good summary of where the Church is at with this. The Church doesn't have official, dogmatic explanations for every passage in Scripture. Much still remains open for exploration (all within the boundaries of defined doctrine, of course).


#10

Thank you. I am indeed satisfied. It comforts me to know that may questions have answers even if it is not fully known. More over it make me happy to know I am in good company with the saints in my inquiries.


#11

[quote="jcsmid7, post:7, topic:331095"]
I like your thinking. Where might I find Church teaching on this or text in scripture? I am sorry to push. I am wrestling my self and a tradition of the Church and wish to understand. Thanks for the help.

[/quote]

As far as explicit Church teaching, you might try looking in the CCC.

Here are some other things about this:
catholic.com/quickquestions/is-this-account-of-the-passion-correct-in-stating-that-the-passover-celebrated-at-the
catholic.com/magazine/articles/how-do-we-explain-the-passover-discrepancy
(in response to the above) catholic.com/magazine/articles/good-thursday


#12

I believe that the Last Supper was the same date that everyone else ate the Passover meal. I don't think any other view is reconcilable with the synoptic Gospels. Brant Pitre talks a little bit about some of the issues in this interview.

thesacredpage.com/2012/04/brant-pitre-on-date-of-last-supper-tsp.html

It does not bother me that Jesus died the day after the Passover lambs. Jesus is not just another Passover lamb, but the Passover lamb that all the others pointed forward to.


#13

We often get caught up on techinal issues but I think a greater one is often lost. During those times a Passover meal would had to be done a certain way. A Rabbi would have to be present to bless the lamb and the food. What is very interesting is that there was no "Rabbi" present nor a "lamb" but rather Christ was the Rabbi and Lamb. I always found that interesting.


#14

[quote="QNDNNDQDCE, post:12, topic:331095"]
I believe that the Last Supper was the same date that everyone else ate the Passover meal. I don't think any other view is reconcilable with the synoptic Gospels. Brant Pitre talks a little bit about some of the issues in this interview.

thesacredpage.com/2012/04/brant-pitre-on-date-of-last-supper-tsp.html

It does not bother me that Jesus died the day after the Passover lambs. Jesus is not just another Passover lamb, but the Passover lamb that all the others pointed forward to.

[/quote]

But then what about John? John makes it sound like the Passover hasn't taken place yet.

It looks like Dr. Pitre has a book in the works that deals with the OP's question. I'm sure once that is released, that will give more background on the topic than anyone could ever hope for. :)


#15

I am in the Essene camp. That view point though is against the "Holy Thursday" tradition. I couched my inquiry to gain insight on what the thoughts of others were. Light house Catholic Media puts out a CD on the "Dead Sea Scrolls". It paints the Essene as devout Jews and very Catholic looking. They would have celebrated passover on Tuesday. The thing that makes me happy in all of this is that others have struggled with it and more importantly it is ok and does not really change the Gospel at all.

Peace to all.


#16

The issue really isn't a big deal when we look at Judaism at the time of Jesus.

There were different sects in Judaism. Some sects used a solar calandar and some used a lunar calendar. These celebrated the Passover on different nights. There ware clearly divisions in the liturgical calendar across sects.

The Sadducees were the high priests and were in charge of the temple. These used the lunar calendar in which the feasts fell on different days each year.

Essene and Qumran Jews however, used a solar calendar where the major festivals fell on the same day of the week year after year. For Essene and Qumran Jews, passover was always after sunset on Tuesday night. The site of the last supper is in the Essene section of Jerusalem. Jesus was likely an Essene Jew. Essene means "Holy Ones" and they had a very monastic spitituality, like Jesus who often went off into the desert to pray.

As an Essene Jew, Jesus would have eaten the passover on Tuesday evening but he later stood in the praetorium where the Jewish authorities (Sadducees) did not enter (John 18:28) so as not to defile themselves for their own passover, which was Friday night.

It's not that big of a deal when we realize how these people lived every-day life.

-Tim-


#17

[quote="jcsmid7, post:15, topic:331095"]
I am in the Essene camp. That view point though is against the "Holy Thursday" tradition. I couched my inquiry to gain insight on what the thoughts of others were. Light house Catholic Media puts out a CD on the "Dead Sea Scrolls". It paints the Essene as devout Jews and very Catholic looking. They would have celebrated passover on Tuesday. The thing that makes me happy in all of this is that others have struggled with it and more importantly it is ok and does not really change the Gospel at all.

Peace to all.

[/quote]

:thumbsup: That's a good take away message. The longer I hang around the more I realize that every theological question I've ever had has already been asked by people smarter than me. :p It is sort of reassuring just knowing that Catholic biblical scholars are out there thinking these things through. :)


#18

By the same token, how was Mary (the Immaculate Conception ) redeemed
in her mother's womb , many years before Christ accomplished the Redemption
of all mankind ?


#19

You are looking at time all wrong. Time is the prison we are in. God is not constrained by time, or something could confine and define him. Rev13:8* And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. * This is partly how we look at this that God through Jesus who exists outside of time applies his grace to those who were in need of it. Also if God were constrained by time the Old Testament saints would have no salvation, because they lived before Christ. This understanding is why Mary's "yes" to God is so important. If she had not said yes there would be no salvation.

For what it is worth the first prophecy regarding Mary is in Gen3:15* And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.* Notice it says Woman and not women and seed and not seeds. This is looking to Mary and Jesus. Hope this explains it all better.

Peace


#20

[quote="jcsmid7, post:19, topic:331095"]
You are looking at time all wrong. Time is the prison we are in. God is not constrained by time, or something could confine and define him. Rev13:8* And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. * This is partly how we look at this that God through Jesus who exists outside of time applies his grace to those who were in need of it. Also if God were constrained by time the Old Testament saints would have no salvation, because they lived before Christ. This understanding is why Mary's "yes" to God is so important. If she had not said yes there would be no salvation.

For what it is worth the first prophecy regarding Mary is in Gen3:15* And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.* Notice it says Woman and not women and seed and not seeds. This is looking to Mary and Jesus. Hope this explains it all better.

Peace

[/quote]

Other indications of God using Christ's sacrifice "before" it happened on earth; Elijah being taken up to heaven.


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