"Latin Rite" and EWTN Mass


#1

This is for seremina, and anyone esle who is interested (I’m sure some of you already knew the answer)…

seremina,

I didn’t forget your questions about EWTN and my promise to watch their Mass and report back. As I expected, it is the Mass of Paul VI or Pauline Mass. You will see it described as the Novus Ordo or “NO” by most people on this Forum. I don’t use the term, because at this point, IMO it isn’t “Novus” (in fact, for me, it’s the only one I have known). :wink: Here is a good site with the side-by-side Latin and English for this Mass: saintmaryparish.net/ordo_missae.htm

The differences between the Mass at my parish and the EWTN Mass are minor - we pray the ‘myserium fidei’ (I think I called it the memorare in my other post…oops…still learning my Latin prayers :o ) in Latin, they pray it in English. They pray the response after readings/gospel and the benediction in Latin, we pray them in English. From what I can tell, this is one of the problems with the current Ordo Missae in Latin - how much Latin varies from parish to parish and even Mass to Mass.

The other problem is that a Latin Pauline Mass is very difficult to find. In our Mass times listing, there is no mention of it. There is at one Church I attended in California. You will probably have difficulty finding one in your area…if there is one. There is a resource www.masstimes.org for finding Masses in your area, but the posts may not tell you if they offer a Latin Pauline Mass.

The other confusion is with the term “Latin Rite.” This term includes Mass in the vernacular. These are the Western Rites:

Latin
[LIST]
*]Rite of an overwhelming majority of Roman Catholics, and majority of Catholics in general.
*]Named because of the use of Latin in the Liturgy, and is still part of Canon Law: “The eucharistic celebration is to be carried out either in the Latin language or in another language, provided the liturgical texts have been lawfully approved.” (Cannon 928, 1983 Code)[/LIST]Ambrosian
[LIST]
*]The Rite of the Archdiocese of Milan, Italy
*]Thought to be of an early origin; probably consolidated, but not originated, by St. Ambrose in the 4th century. [/LIST]Bragan
[LIST]
*]Rite of the Archdiocese of Braga, the Primal See of Portugal, it is only occasionally used.
*]Derives from the 12th century or earlier.[/LIST]Mozarabic
[LIST]
*]Confined to the Rite of the Iberian peninsula-specifically, the Cathedral of the Archdiocese of Toledo, Spain, and 6 of its parishes.
*]Known to exist from at least the 6th century, but probably with roots to the original evangelization.
*]Beginning in the 11th century it was generally replaced by the Roman Rite, although it has remained in the locations listed above. Its celebration today is generally semi-private.[/LIST]Dominican
[LIST]
*]Rite of the Order of Friars Preacher (OP), founded by St. Dominic in 1215.[/LIST]Carmelite
[LIST]
*]Rite of the Order of Carmel, whose modern foundation was by St. Berthold c.1154.[/LIST]Carthusian
[LIST]
*]Rite of the Cathusian Order founded by St. Bruno in 1084.[/LIST]

andrew.cmu.edu/user/newman/Pages/fr-catholicrites.html
In addition, there are Eastern Rites (also found at that link).

I think your best bet to find a Mass in Latin is to find a Traditional Latin Mass (sometimes referred to as “Tridentine”) in your area. Hopefully, there are some indults in Ontario.

Pax,
Robert


#2

Generally the Latin Masses are distinguished as such:

1962 = Traditional Latin Mass (Tridentine)
1970 = Normative Mass (Novus Ordo)

I haven’t seen 1975 but I understand that is what’s currently in use.


#3

Ohh! You’re right, that IS confusing. You helped me sort it out. Okay. I guess TLM is the way to go. As far as I know, it doesn’t require any active participation, like the N.O. does. Just participation by being reverent.

And thank you for posting a missal for EWTN’s Mass. I can’t find one anywhere and all EWTN would tell me is to buy the Large Print Daily Roman Missal * for quite the fortune.

Also, thank you for posting the list to the various kinds of Mass Rites out there. Very nice! And you’re right…listings never say what Rite the Mass is. That’s annoying.

You’re awesome and very complete in the answers. Thanks! :thumbsup:
*


#4

Right, but the Latin term Novus Ordo means “New Order,” not “Normative Mass.” It was the New Order, when it was introduced. Novus Ordo is not the name of the rite.


#5

I would say 38 years out of 1970 is pretty Novus. :slight_smile:


#6

Yes, in fact there is more Latin printed on our US dollar bills than said in some of the Masses. Not exactly what Vatican II documents ordered.

PS. The words “Novus Ordo” are also written on those bills but please don’t read anything into that. :slight_smile:


#7

:rotfl: Only if it’s a full moon - that’s “Conspiracy Day” on the Michael Medved radio show. Always fun. :smiley:

BTW…my Latin is coming along without too much effort (IOW…I haven’t put much effort into it. :blush: ) So far, I can keep up with the chanting while reading for most of the prayers, and I know the Agnus Dei by heart. Now that I know EWTN has the Mass in “mostly Latin,” I can record it on my DVR and practice a little bit with the kids.


#8

It was stuff like this that Pope Pius V wanted to put a stop to in promulgating Quo Primum, there were things going on that was causing a difference in the way mass was celebrated from Parish to Parish, so he codified the Mass, and I believe that did the job, but in Vatican II, the problem was reintroduced, and the solution, was suppressed.

The problem is that Vatican II coucil made a lot of Changes, big changes, but people get confused and blame the Council for things it did not do; but such things were done in the Spirit of Vatican II, that Spirit of reform, that same spirit that inebriated Martin Luther, which led to the change in the Mass. Vatican II did not suppress the old mass, or abolish it, but that happened in the wake of Vatican II, in the way it was promulgated; and now we have this huge mess.


#9

Quo Primum was a further clarification of Trent, which had been called to counter the Protestant reformation(s). Trent defined who was in and who was out of the Catholic Church. Pius V pronounced that all rites created after 1370 AD were out, after Trent had already laid the groundwork against all new rites.


#10

All this is very interesting to read. How did all these different Rites even get started? I thought that there was only one way to do Mass. At least, until I’ve watched a slew of Masses I thought would be the same. They weren’t. A couple were more reverent, the others are the typical N.O., the rest are downright WEIRD.

Also, judging from the various inquiries/complaints some people have typed in about their parish or from a Church they attended in their travels…you would think our beloved Pope would buckle down and start restricting how Mass may be performed. He did a very positive step by saying Gregorian Chant should be in it and I don’t think he’s changed the way to do Mass whenever we see him…what’s the word… umm…presiding…over the Mass on TV.

I’m surprised monk/nun Orders have their own Mass, too. How’d that get started?


#11

Ambrosian Rite Mass (if anyone’s interested)

youtube.com/watch?v=U6EgF8kXS_k


#12

I always wondered why he doesn’t, he is suppose to be the leader right? :confused:


#13

That’s actually not what Pope St. Pius V was going for with Quo Primum. Yes, there were things going on that he sought to correct but the problem was not simple difference among rites; he was perfectly fine with that, as historically the Church had been, and it was likely with his own (Dominican) rite in mind that he made provision for venerable rites with continued use of 200 years or more. The real problem was simply that the liturgical usages of all sorts of places (or orders - the Cistercians had a centuries-long battle) were flying off the rails with all sorts of changes and accretions not compatible with the spirit of the liturgy. The 1570 Missale Romanum was, as part of a reform of all liturgical books mandated by Trent, intended to purge the existing books of any mistakes that may have crept in over time and then head off any liturgical tampering by removing local ability to change the liturgy for really the first time, at least with such severity.


#14

The problem you’ve identified is more pervasive than just the Latin Mass (Tridentine Mass) issues. For a more complete exposition, I strongly suggest you acquire and read the book, “EWTN: A Network Gone Wrong,” written by Christopher A. Ferrara; probably available from Amazon.com; but definitely available elsewhere, as warranted.

The book describes the tangent from the “straight and narrow” taken by EWTN; especially after Mother Angelica was “relieved” of her duties. Bottom line: Don’t take EWTN as the “definitive word” in Roman Catholicism.

As a “cradle Catholic” (i.e., born into and raised in the Faith for obver 65 years), I was taught in a Roman Catholic high school by Roman Catholic diocesan priests; that, if one is to study properly, one studies the Text, the Context, and Related Readings. If you overlay the “catholicism” of EWTN with the “Catholicism” of other, reputable sources; you’ll find that the mapping is not “one-to-one”; when, in reality, it should be (i.e., the truth is one; there aren’t variations of truth). Further, the truth can be tested and tested again; it won’t “vary” under repeated critiques and criticisms.

So, continue your search for the truth, as any prudent person would.

**Scientia vincit omnia **(knowledge conquers all things).


#15

But it’s SOOOOO reverent! How can it be possibly wrong in any way? :rolleyes:


#16

Maybe I’m the odd man out, but I like EWTN


#17

EWTN (TV and radio) opened many doors and provided me with so much information to help me come back home to the church. I was completely lost in a sea of Protestant thinking, knowing that there had to actually be one truth out there. God is powerful enough to work any way He wants. But for where I am in life, EWTN worked for me. I’m grateful.

I’m also curious. I am still learning about where things fall around here. The last poster who was writing about EWTN straying off the path… where are you coming from? Are you saying they are too conservative or not conservative enough? (I know those labels are not accurate either way, :confused: but help me out here, I’m a newbie:D )


#18

Obviously you haven’t read “EWTN, A Network Gone Wrong” by Christopher Ferrara.


#19

Nope, I haven’t and don’t have time for such. It was EWTN that I saw in my first steps as a Catholic and both times I strayed it was EWTN that God used to bring me back, so I’m pretty loyal to them. Add to that every time I went to Protestantism and back it was always the extreme positions, I’m just getting tried of that.


#20

historyb,

I’m with you! I LOVE EWTN! We need more Catholic channels! God bless the people who work so hard to keep us informed and faithful! :extrahappy:

The problem some people have with EWTN is a big conspiracy theory about Mother Angelica being booted out of power, as proven by the fact that she isn’t as involved as she used to be. She’s an old lady, for goodness sakes! I’m sure she wasn’t as much forced out as she was ready for a break! I’m sorry, but even people as holy as Mother Angelica get old a decrepid and have to do less and less.

:heart:


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