Law Covenant Still in Force?


#1

I understand that the Holy Father offered his opinion on several occasions that the Law of Moses is still in force, never having been revoked by God, is I believe how he put it. I was reading documents of one of the older ecumenical councils ( I believe it was Florence ) and that council taught that the Law Covenant HAD been revoked by God. Question: Can the everyday thoughts of any given pontiff
supercede the teaching of an infallible ecumenical council’s decrees?
I know the pope is only infallible when speaking ex-cathedra…
Anyone have any thoughts on the issue?
God bless all,
Love,
Jaypeeto


#2

[quote=Jaypeeto]I understand that the Holy Father offered his opinion on several occasions that the Law of Moses is still in force, never having been revoked by God, is I believe how he put it. I was reading documents of one of the older ecumenical councils ( I believe it was Florence ) and that council taught that the Law Covenant HAD been revoked by God. Question: Can the everyday thoughts of any given pontiff
supercede the teaching of an infallible ecumenical council’s decrees?
[/quote]

Answer, no. Any pope can give his opinion on any matter, his opinion is not an infallible Church teaching, and it’s just his opinion. Without referencing which “occasions” and how he stated these things it’s impossible to say his intent. Also without referencing the specific council documents it is also impossible to say if they are to be considered infallible or not. Councils deal in many matters not only Church teachings, and not every word from a council would be considered official Church teaching and infallible. Some make the error of believing every word the council puts forth is to be considered infallible, it is not, as a pope can give his opinion, so can a council.


#3

[quote=Tom]Answer, no. Any pope can give his opinion on any matter, his opinion is not an infallible Church teaching, and it’s just his opinion. Without referencing which “occasions” and how he stated these things it’s impossible to say his intent. Also without referencing the specific council documents it is also impossible to say if they are to be considered infallible or not. Councils deal in many matters not only Church teachings, and not every word from a council would be considered official Church teaching and infallible. Some make the error of believing every word the council puts forth is to be considered infallible, it is not, as a pope can give his opinion, so can a council.
[/quote]

When reading over the words of an ecumenical council, how can you tell which parts are supposed to be infallible? Do they list those points specifically?


#4

I think you answered your own question when you said “I know the pope is only infallible when speaking ex-cathedra…”

A Popes everyday thoughts and opinions might be interesting to hear, but they have no weight when it comes to articles of faith or morals. The Pope couldn’t supersede an infallible ecumenical council’s decrees even if he was speaking ex-cathedra. If he infallibly reversed an infallible decree, then one of them is not infallible.

I heard a story once about a Pope that was about to speak ex-cathedra. He was going to make an infallible statement that would be extremely heretical (I don’t know what, maybe he was going to say the “Jesus was just a man”). Anyway, the story goes that right before he was going to make his infallible statement, he mysteriously fell over and died of a heart attack.

Now I don’t know if the story is true (I would guess it probably is not true), but it says a lot about the protection of the Holy Spirit. We know the Pope is infallible when speaking ex-cathedra on matter of faith and morals not because he’s some sort of superman, but because the protection of the Holy Spirit prevents him from erring. According to the story, sometimes the Holy Spirit needs to use more extreme means than other times to protect a Pope from speaking fallibly.


#5

[quote=Jaypeeto]I understand that the Holy Father offered his opinion on several occasions that the Law of Moses is still in force, never having been revoked by God, is I believe how he put it. I was reading documents of one of the older ecumenical councils ( I believe it was Florence ) and that council taught that the Law Covenant HAD been revoked by God.
[/quote]

The Catholic Church teaches that the Ten Commandments that were given to Moses are still in effect.

Can you show me where the Council of Florence taught that Catholics no longer have to obey the Ten Commandments?

:rolleyes:


#6

[quote=exoflare]When reading over the words of an ecumenical council, how can you tell which parts are supposed to be infallible? Do they list those points specifically?
[/quote]

Except for the sake of argument, why would one care? If the USCCB makes a statement for American Catholics to follow should we protest to find if the statement is infallible or not? Or only follow their guidance if it’s infallible? It seems to me we’re trying to split hairs here over authority, that to me is the sin of vanity. As I tell my children, adults (at school) are an authority; they don’t need to explain to you why they want you to do something, unless it’s unsafe, morally wrong (and yes, they understand exactly what I mean by that) or in any way questionable they are to comply. Pride is a strong emotion, and I have no doubt Satan uses it in his fight against Gods’ Church.


#7

Prior thread on the subject:

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=44375&highlight=dulles


#8

[quote=Tom]Except for the sake of argument, why would one care? If the USCCB makes a statement for American Catholics to follow should we protest to find if the statement is infallible or not? Or only follow their guidance if it’s infallible? It seems to me we’re trying to split hairs here over authority, that to me is the sin of vanity. As I tell my children, adults (at school) are an authority; they don’t need to explain to you why they want you to do something, unless it’s unsafe, morally wrong (and yes, they understand exactly what I mean by that) or in any way questionable they are to comply. Pride is a strong emotion, and I have no doubt Satan uses it in his fight against Gods’ Church.
[/quote]

You sure read a lot into that… anyway, does someone know?


#9

I thought this discussion was about the Old Testament Covenants between God and man. When Father-God declared a covenant, it was usually made in-perpetuity, which we well know is forever. Hopefully, no council or papal statement made ex-cathedra would ever attempt to nullify one of the Father’s Covenants.

Blessings

John


#10

Jesus did not come to change the Law but fulfill it.Not one dot or crossed T is to be alltured in the 10 commandments,Jesus said. St. Paul said if it were not for the Law ,he would not have known sin. :thumbsup: God Bless


#11

In John’s gospel Jesus tells the pharisees that they will be judged on the law of Moses(the Old covenant). For Christians it is replaced with the New Covenant, but for those who are still of the Judiac Religion the Old Covenant still holds and it is under this that they will be judged. I don’t think John Paul II contradicted the Council if it did speak to this issue. He merely clarified what had been declared, namely that for us the Old Covenant has been replaced…


#12

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