LDS and Ezekial 37

My friend gave me Ezekial 37:15-17 as proof of the BoM. I can “rebute” her proof in a very general sense, however, I could use some more in-depth evidence. I’m emailing her back tomorrow (Monday)…

“The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.”

Just a word of caution when dealing with LDS: If the bible does not agree with their teachings, then they will tell you that it’s somewhere the bible has been mistranslated or the original meaning lost. They don’t have a “list” of what’s been mistranslated, though, so you can’t get them to prove it. That is likely to be the argument you get back. They say they believe in the bible, but their main source of “divine word” is the “Book of Mormon”, which outweighs the bible to them.

[quote=MistyF] They say they believe in the bible, but their main source of “divine word” is the “Book of Mormon”, which outweighs the bible to them.
[/quote]

I seriously have to disagree with you there Misty. I grant you some members tend to give that impression, but that is certainly not the case. That is like saying the Catholics favor the books of Macabees and Esther over the rest of the bible. It just isnt true.

Yeah, but what about my question specifically about Ezekial 37???

[quote=tkdnick]My friend gave me Ezekial 37:15-17 as proof of the BoM. I can “rebute” her proof in a very general sense, however, I could use some more in-depth evidence. I’m emailing her back tomorrow (Monday)…

“The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.”
[/quote]

Could you perhaps provide some illumination on what your friend thinks this verse proves? This passage has historically been interpreted to mean the inclusion of the Church into the promises to Israel, but how this can be applied primarily or specifically to Mormonism escapes me.

[quote=Fidelis]Could you perhaps provide some illumination on what your friend thinks this verse proves? This passage has historically been interpreted to mean the inclusion of the Church into the promises to Israel, but how this can be applied primarily or specifically to Mormonism escapes me.
[/quote]

Good point. She says that the stick of Judah is the Bible and the stick of Ephraim is the BoM, and that the joining of the two makes a complete witness of Christ.

[quote=tkdnick]Good point. She says that the stick of Judah is the Bible and the stick of Ephraim is the BoM, and that the joining of the two makes a complete witness of Christ.
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That’s what I thought. Since there’s nothing here that specifically singles out the LDS, I’d say this is not only a stretch, but a huge leap, and can be dismissed on that basis.

I looked into this a few years ago. I can’t remember the specifics but if you Google it I’m sure you can come up with the exact references you need. I remember two big problems with it.

The first problem with the LDS interpretation is that the Hebrew word used for “stick” in this case, can in no way be interpreted to mean “book”. There is another word for “scroll” that is used in Ezekiel a few chapters earlier, so why wouldn’t he use the proper word if that’s what he meant? I also recall that the root for the Hebrew word “stick”, is in fact “tribe”. This matches with what every non-LDS Bible scholar(that I’ve read anyway) believes what is meant by “stick” in this case.
Also, I believe there are other uses of that exact word in the Bible, and none of them refer to a scroll. They all refer to a real stick, or piece of wood.

The second problem comes from the Book of Mormon. LDS believe that the “Stick of Joseph” refers to the history of the people of the Book of Mormon. The verse in Ezekiel states that “For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.” .
The problem is that all of the peoples of the Book of Mormon were descendants of Manassah. This is according to the book of Alma(I can’t remember the chapter and verse), which is in the BOM. So, either the BOM is wrong or Joseph Smith was wrong when he made the claim regarding the BOM and the stick of Joseph. The two simply cannot be reconciled in my mind.

Let me know if you need exact references and I’ll look them up for you.

[quote=Tmaque]Let me know if you need exact references and I’ll look them up for you.
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Thanks! I found those exact references you commented on plus a few more.

[quote=tkdnick]My friend gave me Ezekial 37:15-17 as proof of the BoM. I can “rebute” her proof in a very general sense, however, I could use some more in-depth evidence. I’m emailing her back tomorrow (Monday)…

“The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.”
[/quote]

That interpretation has no basis at all in the OT text - it is simply a justification, after the event, of a fact for which it would be convenient to find a Biblical prophecy: namely, the supposed prophetic ministry of a certain 19th-century American.

I could do the same, and say that I’m foretold in the Book pf Daniel and in Revelation 12. (That is two references to one :)) So could Abraham Lincoln, or anyone else with a name in the Bible. Saying it is so, doesn’t make it so. Where is the proof that Ezekiel meant any such thing ?

It’s like the proof that Joseph Smith is prophesied of in Genesis 49 - both are an unsupported assertions, which are unecessary, because the texts can be explained without resorting to such ideas.

It’s no different from the Muslim idea that Mohammad is foretold in the Bible. ##

[quote=Tmaque]I looked into this a few years ago. I can’t remember the specifics but if you Google it I’m sure you can come up with the exact references you need. I remember two big problems with it.

The first problem with the LDS interpretation is that the Hebrew word used for “stick” in this case, can in no way be interpreted to mean “book”. There is another word for “scroll” that is used in Ezekiel a few chapters earlier, so why wouldn’t he use the proper word if that’s what he meant? I also recall that the root for the Hebrew word “stick”, is in fact “tribe”. This matches with what every non-LDS Bible scholar(that I’ve read anyway) believes what is meant by “stick” in this case.
Also, I believe there are other uses of that exact word in the Bible, and none of them refer to a scroll. They all refer to a real stick, or piece of wood.

The second problem comes from the Book of Mormon. LDS believe that the “Stick of Joseph” refers to the history of the people of the Book of Mormon. The verse in Ezekiel states that “For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.” .
The problem is that all of the peoples of the Book of Mormon were descendants of Manassah. This is according to the book of Alma(I can’t remember the chapter and verse), which is in the BOM. So, either the BOM is wrong or Joseph Smith was wrong when he made the claim regarding the BOM and the stick of Joseph. The two simply cannot be reconciled in my mind.
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How can Smith have been an Ephraimite and a descendant of Manasseh ?

As he was Scotch-Irish, neither is likely :slight_smile: ##

[quote=Gottle of Geer]## How can Smith have been an Ephraimite and a descendant of Manasseh ?

As he was Scotch-Irish, neither is likely :slight_smile: ##
[/quote]

JS isn’t claiming that for himself, he’s claiming it for the peoples written about in the BOM.

The response I got when presenting all of the evidence about Ezekiel 37 was:

“About Ezekiel - just like Isaiah, Jeremiah, and other prophets, Ezekiel spoke in metaphors and symbolism and on many different levels. So when he talks about two sticks and writing on two sticks, that doesn’t mean he is literally going to write on them. I know that Ezekiel is talking about the gathering of Israel, and there are two things that refer to the gathering: first - the gathering is not only a physical one (which is what you mentioned), but a spiritual gathering, in which the House of Israel returns to worship the Lord. How do you think this will happen? Second - when Isreal was scattered, where did they go?? We know the tribe of Judah ended up in Israel, but where are the other tribes? The people in the Book of Mormon are also the part of the House of Israel that are to be gathered.”

Completely ignored every piece of evidence I presented.

[quote=Gottle of Geer] Where is the proof that Ezekiel meant any such thing ?
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That’s one problem I tend to have with this person I am “debating” with. I never get any evidence. All I get is assertions, and when I give evidence of something that contradicts the assertion I either get a new assertion (or re-assertion of the previous assertion), or the conversation stops or changes subjects. It can be very frustrating! But I am keeping at it.

Todd,

Decedents from Manasseh are in Alma 10:3 and 2 Nephi Ch3. Nephi Ch3 talks about Lehi’s youngest son Joseph Being from the direct lineage of Joseph of Egypt and that his lineage would directly bare the fruits of Joseph Smith. I did not know that JS is a Nephite.

God Bless,

ex-mo

[quote=ex-mormon]Todd,

Decedents from Manasseh are in Alma 10:3 and 2 Nephi Ch3. Nephi Ch3 talks about Lehi’s youngest son Joseph Being from the direct lineage of Joseph of Egypt and that his lineage would directly bare the fruits of Joseph Smith. I did not know that JS is a Nephite.

God Bless,

ex-mo
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Manassah was a son of Joseph so Lehi’s youngest son would have been a descendant of Joseph as well (had he really existed). My point was that the stick of Joseph so often refered to by LDS as the BOM, is actually called the stick of Ephraim in Ezekiel. But, the BOM peoples (had they really existed) were supposedly from Mananssah, not Ephraim. So, how can they claim the stick of Joseph(Ephraim) refers to the Book of Mormon?

I never claimed JS was a Nephite. I don’t know what you’re refering to there.

[quote=Tmaque]Manassah was a son of Joseph so Lehi’s youngest son would have been a descendant of Joseph as well (had he really existed). My point was that the stick of Joseph so often refered to by LDS as the BOM, is actually called the stick of Ephraim in Ezekiel. But, the BOM peoples (had they really existed) were supposedly from Mananssah, not Ephraim. So, how can they claim the stick of Joseph(Ephraim) refers to the Book of Mormon?

I never claimed JS was a Nephite. I don’t know what you’re refering to there.
[/quote]

Todd,

I am in complete agreement with you on the Ephriam-Manassah stick reference. With JS being a Nephite or Lehite:D comment, I was simply referring to the confusing genealogy in 2 Nephi chapter 3 about who seed would bare whom with reference to the gospel being restored by JS and his ancestry.

God Bless,

ex-mo

[quote=ex-mormon]Decedents from Manasseh are in Alma 10:3 and 2 Nephi Ch3
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I just finished reading all of 2 Nephi 3 and I find nothing about them being descendents of Manasseh. I see them as descendents of Joseph, but not Manasseh. I only found that in Alma 10:3.

[quote=Tmaque]I also recall that the root for the Hebrew word “stick”, is in fact “tribe”.
[/quote]

I just checked out an English-Hebrew Lexicon, and I did not see a connection between the words for stick and tribe.

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