I don’t see “materia non ex Deo” either. Is it in the Joseph Smith Translation? Is it in the Christian Bible anywhere?
Until the Internet Era, Mormonism made sense to me. And I believed all the rubbish that both Mormon and Protestants put out about the evils of Catholicism. The first negative bit of information that I remember encountering that would damn Mormonism was the results of the DNA studies of Native Americans. But plenty of Mormons came online to offer plausible explanations. Then I discovered that Joseph Smith had married 11 of other men’s wives, often having sent the husband on a mission first. Then I learned of Brigham Young fleeing Nauvoo because federal marshals were coming to arrest him for counterfeiting. Then the Fanny Alger affair came up. Then…the negative information kept coming. I did a bunch of research and then left the LDS church. I no longer believe the claims against the Catholic Church, but I am finding it difficult to want to join another church.
The Mormon church lost many members because of the internet! In fact, at first the leaders tried to forbid use of it, but its very hard to fight, and now, they even have a few sites of their own.
In fact, most growth these days is in third world countries-where internet access is still a luxury! I really can’t see such a religion doing much good. And, if anyone says ‘at least they’re Christian’ don’t buy that! They believe that God was once a man…and that faithful, Mormon Men can become gods! Polygamy and polytheism…a most unholy pair!
Stick with Jesus…the real one, not the son of one of many gods, and the brother of Lucifer (all official Mormon theology). He will never let you down, even when you can’t feel his presence.
May the real God Bless you!!!
I would push that even further. Stick with Jesus, God the Son, the second Person of the Blessed Trinity. There are so many false Christ out there, the Mormon one, the JW one, the Oneness Pentacostal one, and the list goes on. But our Lord foretold this, that many false Christ would come.
As St. Paul says: “Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.” (2 Thess. 2:15)
Thanks! It’s certainly true! Amen!
They never tried to forbid use of the internet.
gazelam: I may have missed it but have you defined apostasy? It is my understanding that apostasy it a falling away. It would be the person worshiping another god or not worshiping any god. The complete denial of Jesus. Is this how you understand it?
I’ve been a Latter-day Saint all of my life and I’ve never heard of this.
Actually, the Bible says that God is a man. Is there anything wrong with believing the Bible?
John 8:17, 18
Even in your law it is written that the testimony of two men can be verified. I testify on my behalf and so does the Father who sent me.”
Are you Catholic? If so, what do you make of CCC 460?
The Word became flesh to make us " partakers of the divine nature ":“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”
Again, Latter-day Saint belief is straight from the Bible, which refers to Satan as a son of God.
Job 1:6 One day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, the satan also came among them.
Job 2:1 One day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, the satan also came with them.
I hope this helps…
The Encyclopedia of Mormonism says this about apostasy:
The English word “apostasy” derives from the Greek apostasía or apóstasis (“defection, revolt”; used in a political sense by Herodotus and Thucydides); it is mentioned in a religious context in the Septuagint and the New Testament (e.g., Josh. 22:22 and 2Chr. 29:19; 2 Thes. 2:3states that an apostasía must come before the second coming of Christ). It can mean the intransitive “to stand away from,” or the active “to cause to stand away from.” Thus an apostasy can be an active, collective rebellion or a “falling away.”
Bible says before this, " God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth." (John 4:24) God the Father is a Spirit not a man.
If one was to take everything literal about what Jesus said in John 8:17 then that would rule women out of verifying the testimony… which we know not to be the case. So Jesus wasn’t being literal and just meant witnesses in general, hence why the NRSV translates as such: “In your law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is valid. I testify on my own behalf, and the Father who sent me testifies on my behalf.”
Some theorize that this is actually meaning the Eucharist, and many biblical commentaries on 2 Peter refernce the Eucharist as the divine nature that we partake of. But, I think it refers to actually partaking of the divine nature when we are glorified in the Resurrection of the body. But, the difference is, we as Catholics and Orthodox do not teach that we are BY NATURE God, but only BY GRACE we are partakers of the divine nature. In the eastern churches theosis, or deification, is a transformative process whose aim is likeness to or union with God. We become one with God, but not little gods creating and ruling our own planets like the LDS church teaches. We are united to God in a mysterious way that we can’t explain. But are not gods, for that would be blasphemy to say for " Before me there was no god formed, and neither will there be after me." (Isaiah 43:10) There is only one God by nature, and that is Yahweh alone, who is Spirit.
Jesus created all things: John 1:3; Col 1:16-18. And Jesus is far above the angels Hebrews 1. So, clearly He is not a brother to Satan, for He created Satan.
You would agree that Satan is a different sort of son of God as humans are a different sort? Would you say humans and the angels are the same type of sons of God? Scripture would disagree completely. But, on any note, Jesus created Satan, therefore not a brother of the devil.
on the last post, can you give us verifiable date when the Great and total apostasy of the Christian Church happened? And can you point to who started the apostasy and why we don’t see any points to it?
Here is St. Thomas on how God is not a man:
First, because no body is in motion unless it be put in motion, as is evident from induction. Now it has been already proved (I:2:3), that God is the First Mover, and is Himself unmoved. Therefore it is clear that God is not a body.
Secondly, because the first being must of necessity be in act, and in no way in potentiality. For although in any single thing that passes from potentiality to actuality, the potentiality is prior in time to the actuality; nevertheless, absolutely speaking, actuality is prior to potentiality; for whatever is in potentiality can be reduced into actuality only by some being in actuality. Now it has been already proved that God is the First Being. It is therefore impossible that in God there should be any potentiality. But every body is in potentiality because the continuous, as such, is divisible to infinity; it is therefore impossible that God should be a body.
Thirdly, because God is the most noble of beings. Now it is impossible for a body to be the most noble of beings; for a body must be either animate or inanimate; and an animate body is manifestly nobler than any inanimate body. But an animate body is not animate precisely as body; otherwise all bodies would be animate. Therefore its animation depends upon some other thing, as our body depends for its animation on the soul. Hence that by which a body becomes animated must be nobler than the body. Therefore it is impossible that God should be a body."
God became man, in order for our sins to be forgiven thru His suffering and death. He didn’t live like a faithful Mormon, in order to gain his godhood. He was with God in the beginning, which is also in the gospel of John, which you quoted.
Mormon doctrine teaches that godhood is a reward, for living a good, clean Mormon life. I saw one missionary explain that Jesus started a church, but after he was crucified, it became corrupted. Now, that sounds close, dangerously close, to denying both the resurrection and the power of the Holy Spirit! I like my Christianity pure…not mixed with lots of stuff added to justify strange and false doctrine. Wow!
I would push that even further and say that God the Son assumed human nature. And God the Father stayed a Spirit. Even more so dismantles the Mormon argument.
Yes! Jesus did say ‘the father is greater than I’ (not in essentials, but position, imo). So, it’s being said that flesh is above spirit? That actually brings to mind some of their doctrines. Like because some of the ‘spirit children’ of out god and one of his many wives were denied bodies because they sided with Satan in one of the original wars. The one for this planet. I can’t believe I’m writing this!
Other verses refer to men as spirit. John 3:5, 6 state:
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
Clearly in these verse born again men and women are plainly referred to as spirit - just like God is in John 4:24
Also, 1 Corinthians 15:45 refers to the resurrected Christ as a life-giving spirit.
So, too, it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living being,” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.
Again we see a Being of flesh and bone referred to as spirit. It’s only logical to conclude that the Father per John 4:24 has a body of flesh and bone also.
Where does the LDS church teach that?
Eternal Life consists of fully knowing God. (see John 17:3)
This verse is very problematic for the doctrine of the Trinity, since it refers to a time before God and a time after God.
John 17:22 defines the oneness of God (so that they [Jesus’ disciples] may be one, as we [the Father & the Son] are one,)
The disciples will never be able to be consubstantial with each other because they are separate and distinct beings. That is also the Oneness of the Father with the Son - Oneness of unity and purpose only.
“All things” doesn’t literally mean every last thing. Genesis 9:3 states: Any living creature that moves about shall be yours to eat; I give them all to you as I did the green plants.
Does “all” here include poisonous plants and animals?
Acts 2:5 states: Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven staying in Jerusalem.
Do you believe that this verse includes devout Jews from Japan, Mongolia, Indonesia, and the Philippines?
I can point to no specific date - only specific acts, such as, infant baptism, baptism by sprinkling, the Council of Nicea, etc.
What do you mean by “why we don’t see any points to it”?
Humans are body and soul, so there is no problem with them being called that. Your interpretation of 1 Cor. 15 About Jesus being called a life-giving spirit doesn’t mean what you think. It’s contrasting Adam to Jesus, Adam was a living soul, Jesus became, after his death and resurrection, a life giving spirit. It’s contrasting living and life giving. It’s focusing on the gospel here.
It’s not logical at all to conclude that God the Father has a body of flesh bone. That’s an assertion with the weakest scripture to try and prove it. I clearly told you what that scripture, John 4:24 means, as translated in the NRSV but you clearly don’t want to consider that or rebut it.
John 17:3 doesn’t say that eternal life is knowing a God. It states this is Eternal life, saying this how we get eternal life, how we have eternal life. Not what eternal it only. You didn’t rebut my position at saying that eternal life is becoming one with God by grace to participate in His nature.
Isaiah 43 is no problem to the Trinity. It doesn’t imply a time before God, it’s clearly disproving that idea, for if there was a time before God there would be a god before God, His God as the Mormons teach, but as the Bible clearly teaches there is only the one God, therefore there is no before God.
All things means all things in John 1:3 and Col 1:16 clearly. No need to try and twist it with demonic ideas. Jesus “made all things that are made.” John 1:3. What does that leave out?
You have no specific time or date and only an interpretation of Scripture from the Mormon Church as your basis for a church wide apostasy. Terrible evidence
I believe this is Christian teaching. It is not Mormon teaching, but you know that because you have posted this quote over a dozen times and you have never been able to support it as Mormon teaching.
Joseph Smith taught God the Father was a man who became a God; that teaching is not in the Bible.
This shows straight away that isn’t Heaven…
Yes, you can now all beat me up for the misogynistic joke.
Or it can be part of the background of a scam as well and used as a rhetorical device to further that.