Legitimacy and age of Jewish claims of Jesus

I’ve been looking at what some Jewish sources say about Jesus, and I’m wondering if they’re really about Jesus and their age. Some are obviously about Him, but they may be late dated:

(Mary and Joseph?)
Near his house dwelt a widow and her lovely and chaste daughter named Miriam. Miriam was betrothed to Yohanan, of the royal house of David, a man learned in the Torah and God-fearing…On the eighth day he was circumcised. When he was old enough the lad was taken by Miriam to the house of study to be instructed in the Jewish tradition.” (The Toledot Yeshu) -

(apparently on the disciples)
“Our rabbis have taught that Jesus had five disciples: Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni and Todah. They brought Matthai to (to trial). He said, ‘Must Matthai be killed? For it is written, ‘When (mathai) shall I come and appear before God?’” (Psalm 92:2) They said to him, “Yes Matthai must be killed, for it is written, ‘When (mathai) he dies his name will perish’” (Psalm 41:5). They brought Nakai. He said to them, “Must Nakai be killed? For it is written, “The innocent (naqi) and the righteous will not slay’” (Exodus 23:7). They said to him, “Yes, Nakai must be killed, for it is written, ‘In secret places he slays the innocent (naqi)’” (Psalm 10:8). (b. Sanhedrin 43a; the passage continues in a similar way for Nezer, Buni and Todah)

Jesus practiced magic and led Israel astray” (b. Sanhedrin 43a; cf. t. Shabbat 11.15; b. Shabbat 104b)
“The insurgents with him replied that if Yeshu was the Messiah he should give them a convincing sign. They therefore, brought to him a lame man, who had never walked. Yeshu spoke over the man the letters of the Ineffable Name, and the leper was healed. Thereupon, they worshipped him as the Messiah, Son of the Highest… Yeshu spoke up: “Madam, I am the Messiah and I revive the dead.” A dead body was brought in; he pronounced the letters of the Ineffable Name and the corpse came to life. The Queen was greatly moved and said: ‘This is a true sign.’ …the Sages came before the Queen, complaining that Yeshu practiced sorcery and was leading everyone astray… He spoke the Ineffable Name over the birds of clay and they flew into the air. He spoke the same letters over a millstone that had been placed upon the waters. He sat in it and it floated like a boat. When they saw this the people marveled.” (The Toledot Yeshu)

Yeshu proclaimed, ‘I am the Messiah; and concerning me Isaiah prophesied and said, ‘Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.’ He quoted other messianic texts, insisting, ‘David my ancestor prophesied concerning me: ‘The Lord said to me, thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.’ …He started out toward Jerusalem and, arriving at Knob, acquired an *** on which he rode into Jerusalem, as a fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah… On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu, accompanied by his disciples, came to Jerusalem riding upon an ***. Many bowed down before him.” (The Toledot Yeshu)

“It was taught: On the day before the Passover they hanged Jesus. A herald went before him for forty days (proclaiming), ‘He will be stoned, because he practiced magic and enticed Israel to go astray. Let anyone who knows anything in his favor come forward and plead for him.’ But nothing was found in his favor, and they hanged him on the day before the Passover.” (b. Sanhedrin 43a)
“Yeshu was taken prisoner to the synagogue of Tiberias, and they bound him to a pillar. To allay his thirst they gave him vinegar to drink. On his head they set a crown of thorns…*Yeshu was put to death on the sixth hour on the eve of the Passover and of the Sabbath. When they tried to hang him on a tree it broke, for when he had possessed the power he had pronounced by the Ineffable Name that no tree should hold him. He had failed to pronounce the prohibition over the carob-stalk, for it was a plant more than a tree, and on it he was hanged until the hour for afternoon prayer, for it is written in Scripture, ‘His body shall not remain all night upon the tree.’” (The Toledot Yeshu)

“They buried him outside the city. On the first day of the week his bold followers came to Queen Helene with the report that he who was slain was truly the Messiah and that he was not in his grave; he had ascended to heaven as he prophesied. Diligent search was made and he was not found in the grave where he had been buried… A gardener had taken him from the grave and had brought him into his garden and buried him in the sand over which the waters flowed into the garden… Queen Helene demanded, on threat of a severe penalty, that the body of Yeshu be shown to her within a period of three days. There was a great distress. When the keeper of the garden saw Rabbi Tanhuma walking in the field and lamenting over the ultimatum of the Queen, the gardener related what he had done, in order that Yeshu’s followers should not steal the body and then claim that he had ascended into heaven. The Sages removed the body, tied it to the tail of a horse and transported it to the Queen, with the words, ‘This is Yeshu who is said to have ascended to heaven.’” (The Toledot Yeshu)

Have you ever come across anybody other than people on (rather weird) Christian websites who takes this kind of stuff seriously?

Do you know that if you were Catholic you would consider these immediately to be nonsense? Why? Because you, as a Catholic, would have pledged your life to be faithful only to the teachings that you had received from the Church, which came through the centuries from the Apostles. You would not consider those outside the Church to have the authority of Jesus in proclaiming what is true or truth, but only the Church having that authority.

John Martin

I got the impression that the OP was basically asking if this is what Jewish people believe? In general? Only certain sects?

Perhaps he should have just asked what we believe rather than picking up stuff from odd Christian sites?

From a quick googling, this is some kind of very old parody of dubious origins - one could do a completely new one if one combed the Talmud for references to ‘Yeshua’ - bit like combing English-language newspapers for references to the name ‘Dave’.

What do we believe about Jesus? Nothing, not a prophet, not a sage, not Messiah.

Sorry for asking, I’ll be a little more careful next time not to type questions. Sometimes I forget how upsetting it can be for people to answer a question and for this I apologize.

The thing is that we get used to what I call the ‘StormFront Talmud’ in other words references from ‘www.jewsarejusttoonaughtyforwords.com’ to the Talmud - where things are taken completely out of context or are plain manufactured - which supposedly reveal the terribly naughty things Jews think/believe/get up to.

Pushing quotes from ancient/seriously very old parodies (of vague origins) as being something that Jews believed/believe is moving into the world of the weird, you know.

My apologies. I have never seen those quotes before nor knew where they would have come from. I know there are enough intentional attacks out there that many Jews are leary of or jumpy about certain things that may or may not be honest questions by those that have just recently run across certain information and may be uninformed of it’s origins :slight_smile: Thank you for your input though.

I’m actually curious what exactly they are and where they come from, as I don’t have much knowledge on the subject. That’s why I asked.

What in the world does me being or not being Catholic have anything to do with my questions on the origins of these quotes?

As a Catholic, you would have pledged to accept only Catholic teaching as “real” and true. So, you would have seen that this did not come from Catholic sources and thus had no merit for even reading. So it would not matter as to their origin, but they would be discarded.

As a Protestant you have not bound yourself to any authority (well, you will say that “Scripture” is your authority, but you will interpret it yourself, so you are the authority on what is true). So, you pick up documents from any and every source to try and decide on your own authority whether to add them to your understanding of truth.

John Martin

A Jew takes Jewish authorities seriously, a Catholic takes Catholic authority seriously, and someone else writes “this kind of stuff”.

John Martin

This would be a completely valid argument if it was relevant. For example, Tacitus, Josephus and Pliny the younger write about Jesus; so we can question the authenticity of their words.

What I have provided are potential references to Jesus and I want to know the dating of them and if they are actual references to Him. I’m not saying they’re true claims.

You completely missed the mark here and wanted it to be a Catholic/Protestant thing.

I’m honestly disappointed in you all.

This guy here, to me, seemed to be asking if this stuff was legit. Maybe his original post was worded a bit off, but I got the message. People CAN make mistakes. So what if he had doubts? That doesn’t mean you should berate him, and say things like, Well, if you were Catholic, you’d just disregard all this!"

I would’ve been confused too, if I had encountered this on the internet. I would’ve sought guidance too. Isn’t that what CAF is for? Doesn’t everyone else here want advice, and to know what true Church teachings are?

He just wanted to know what it was.

I was actually wondering if they were references to Jesus, someone else or just forgeries. Also, if the Jewish community accepts any of them and what their dates are.

I don’t see the big deal here. Lol.

There are no early Jewish sources for the Christian ‘Jesus’ (beyond the passages in Josephus and much of them are open to dispute).

In a huge and complex work such as the Talmud, if you were really determined, you could construct a ‘Jesus’ and ascribe to him all sorts of characteristics - what kind of ‘Dave’ could you construct out of a year’s newspapers? The Toledot Yeshu was the product of that kind of process.

Count me in as supporting this opinion.

Do you know what the dating for some of these references are? One I found fascinating is the “birds out of clay” one, which is an apocrypha story found out of the 4th century or so; and it’s also found in the Qur’an.

I am curious as which passages are open to dispute? And does this mean we ought to disregard all of his writings?

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