Leprechauns Lutherans and other 16th Century Churches

In ancient Irish myths, the leprechaun guards a hidden pot of gold which humans try to find; and if a person catches one, so the Irish say, he can be forced to reveal where it is by holding him until he reveals its whereabouts. It happened one day so one version of the story goes. A man captured a Leprechaun by hiding behind a tree in a forest until the wee one strolled by and the man threw a net around him. The man would not let him go until he revealed under which tree the treasure was hidden the Leprechaun obliged. The man had a shovel and used it to bury the gold under the tree. He then tied a red ribbon to the tree so that when he returned with a wheel barrow he would be able to distinguish which tree it was that had the deposit of gold. The following day he returned with the wheel barrow only to discover that the Leprechaun had tied identical red ribbons on every tree in the forest. The trees appeared to be identical but only one was the tree which had the treasure.

I have always interpreted that to be an Irish folk tale about the farmer in a parable in the Bible. The farmer (the man in the folk tale) who sows good seed (the first red ribbon) and the evil one (the Leprechaun) ties an (identical red ribbons) the bad seed. Of course the folk tale is not exact because when the Lord (represented by the man) surveys all the “trees” He has no doubt wherein lay the treasure that he left (deposit of faith). Those bad ribbons are like the word “Catholic” when used outside of the True faith. There is a True Faith and if one seeks with all of his heart, He will find it. Who ever seeks finds. Sometimes it takes a little work.

Annie

What sort of response, exactly, are you looking for from the non-Roman Catholics here?

So we are bad seeds and frauds founded by an “evil one”?

I’m not sure what you mean and am not quite sure what reply you expect but when I was a Lutheran I would sometimes attend other protestant churches. I was looking for something. I searched and searched every so often. All of the churches left me empty. I would take my boys with me but was not really thinking of how this would affect them. Not too long after I returned to The Church one of my boys asked me why I go to all of these different churches. I replied by asking him…if someone told you that he had filled a closet with gold in this city and all you had to do was look in closets until you find it you could have the entire stash, how many closets would you search before you stopped? He then asked “and have you found that closet?” I replied yes. He looked at me said “cool” then left the room.
I
have often told this story but I think that the Leprechaun story is a little better in honor of me ancestors.

Annie

I’m glad you’ve found a church to serve you in Word and Sacrament. I have too. It’s Lutheran - full of a whole bunch of Evangelical Catholics. But this aside has nothing to do with my original question, so I’ll rephrase and try again: your story and title come off as condescending, Romocentric and, frankly, offensive - to protestants in general and Lutherans in particular. Why do make such a comparison where you know many non-Roman Catholics congregate? It seems like your goal is to incite and instigate, rather than dialogue.

My goodness, we wouldn’t want to be Romocentric, would we? :rotfl:

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

I actually don’t think of the Church serving me in at all. I see it as I am finally home to where I can serve the Lord and eventually share with Him everlasting happiness in heaven. (Baltimore Catechism 3. Why did God make us? God made us to show forth His goodness and to share with us His everlasting happiness in heaven.) The pastor of one of the Lutheran Churches that I attended in the past recently asked me if I am “being fed” now. I told him “I’d say that receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and divinity of Jesus Christ on a regular basis is the very definition of being fed spiritually”.

Why exactly would you expect a committed Catholic to be other than “Romocentric”? Interesting word I could ask you which dictionary I could look that up in but I won’t.

I don’t know if you are one of the Lutherans who congregate here who has posted about the Pope being the Anti-Christ as long as he teaches that which the Lutherans believe to be wrong. I could look it up I suppose but if you are not one of those Lutherans, have you admonished your brethren about that being offensive and decidedly not Romocentric on a forum run by Catholics in union with the Bishop of Rome? If you are one of those folks, why ever do you do that? I don’t recall ever getting upset about that. I don’t really care what Lutherans think about Catholics. Not even my friends. A good friend of mine (Lutheran) used to tell me about bible studies in my area that maybe I’d like to check out. I told this to a mutual friend (also Lutheran) who asked me if she thought that our mutual friend was trying to reconvert me. I told her that I didn’t know but if she is I’m grateful because she thinks I’m on the wrong road and is trying to help in a subtle way. She is a very good friend indeed.

The Leprechaun story is not meant to incite. In fact I’m floored that that is even suggested. It is meant as food for thought and maybe interesting dialogue.

Annie

An interesting thread…

Maybe she was trying to inspire others to seek the True Treasure. There is only ONE TRUE Church you know. I thought both stories were very nice. God Bless, Memaw

I join Don in giving thanks to God that you have found strengthening in faith and growth in grace through word and sacrament in the Catholic Church.

Peace,
Jon

Jon

I’m not a relativist. The doctrines of Lutherans and Catholics are mutually exclusive. We can both be wrong of course but we cannot both be right. One of us is standing beside a tree with the red ribbon believing that the treasure is there (or in your case the treasure is there too). I wonder if that Leprechaun has hidden pyrite under your tree. It isn’t gold.

Annie

=Annie39;12218676]

I’m not a relativist.

Me neither, but that doesn’t mean I can’t be thankful to God for His gifts to you in the Catholic Church.

The doctrines of Lutherans and Catholics are mutually exclusive. We can both be wrong of course but we cannot both be right.

I respectfully disagree, since our communions agree on so much.

One of us is standing beside a tree with the red ribbon believing that the treasure is there (or in your case the treasure is there too). I wonder if that Leprechaun has hidden pyrite under your tree. It isn’t gold.

From the Catholic Catechism

"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Annie, If even the Catholic Catechism declares that my “ecclesial community” is used by Christ’s Spirit as a means of salvation, I consider that as describing gold under our tree, indeed, even if the Catholic Church wants to claim the source of that power as coming under her.

Further, if a certain German Cardinal can declare the following;** I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper. **, I consider that, too, as describing gold under our tree.

I stand by what I said, Annie, I am thankful to God that you are so blessed in word and sacrament in the Catholic Church.

Jon

Well, it is usually around this time of year, when the frost gets a little squigy and loose that the trolls escape from the fjords in Norway…dontcha know.

If these are indeed Norwegian trolls, we should ask our CAF poster KjetilK for advice in dealing with them. After all, he is from Norway - and a Lutheran priest to boot!

I’m sure he has means of exorcism he can share with the rest of us, jah! :thumbsup:

The thread did not have punctuation…this is a pun, I say it first off…trolls…lutherans…in America garden and kitchen trolls are alot more popular than leprechauns on St. Patricks’ day…as that in America…pinching people who don’t wear green or bragging about drinking green beer is really what being Irish is about.

An Irish priest told us that he considered the leprauchans the work of the devil. So may be that is why you don’t see them as much as a lucky 4 leaf clover.

Jon, this has been dealt with time and time again. I surprised that you haven’t read it. Below is one page of such a discussion between Fr. David and the guy who goes by EvangelCatholic.

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=874608&page=4

Not true. What you are posting is untrue, and (at this point) outright deceptive.

  1. The document does not say what you misrepresent it as saying.
  2. The document does not speak with any authority to over-turn Catholic doctrine.

Again, you are taking a document that has no teaching authority and trying to claim that that document overturns 500 years of Catholic teaching and practice, including very recent documents that do speak with authority.

Catholics can say that “Lutherans believe it” but cannot agree with the statement itself, that Lutherans actually have a valid Eucharist. It’s a distinction I’ve tried to explain to you over and over again, but you consistently deny.
I can say all day long “he thinks he’s the reincarnation of Napoleon” but that won’t mean that he actually is that.

I could “prove” that the Catholic Church recognizes that Lutheran ecclesial communities do not have Apostolic Succession, and do not have a valid Eucharist. That would be the theological equivalent of “proving” that the sun rises in the morning.

This is the teaching of the Catholic Church
30. The Catholic Church’s teaching on the relationship between priestly ministry and the Eucharist and her teaching on the Eucharistic Sacrifice have both been the subject in recent decades of a fruitful dialogue in the area of ecumenism. We must give thanks to the Blessed Trinity for the significant progress and convergence achieved in this regard, which lead us to hope one day for a full sharing of faith. Nonetheless, the observations of the Council concerning the Ecclesial Communities which arose in the West from the sixteenth century onwards and are separated from the Catholic Church remain fully pertinent: “The Ecclesial Communities separated from us lack that fullness of unity with us which should flow from Baptism, and we believe that especially because of the lack of the sacrament of Orders they have not preserved the genuine and total reality of the Eucharistic mystery. Nevertheless, when they commemorate the Lord’s death and resurrection in the Holy Supper, they profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and they await his coming in glory”.
Bl. Pope John Paul II, 2003
vatican.va/holy_father/jo…e-euch_en.html

What’s more even your church agrees:

The New Testament predicts that the church throughout its history will witness many antichrists (Matt. 24:5, 23-24; Mark 13:6, 21-22; Luke 21:8; 1 John 2:18, 22, 4:3; 2 John 7). All false teachers who teach contrary to Christ’s Word are opponents of Christ and, insofar as they do so, are anti-Christ.

However, the Scriptures also teach that there is one climactic “Anti-Christ” (Dan. 7:8, 11, 20-21, 24-25, 11:36-45; 2 Thess. 2; 1 John 2:18, 4:3; Rev. 17-18) … Concerning the historical identity of the Antichrist, we affirm the Lutheran Confessions’ identification of the Antichrist with the office of the papacy whose official claims continue to correspond to the Scriptural marks listed above. It is important, however, that we observe the distinction which the Lutheran Confessors made between the office of the pope (papacy) and the individual men who fill that office. The latter could be Christians themselves. We do not presume to judge any person’s heart. Also, we acknowledge the possibility that the historical form of the Antichrist could change. Of course, in that case another identified by these marks would rise.

In a footnote, the Commission adds:

To the extent that the papacy continues to claim as official dogma the canons and decrees of the Council of Trent which expressly anathematizes, for instance, the doctrine “that justifying faith is nothing else than trust in divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified,” the judgment of the Lutheran Confessional writings that the papacy is the Antichrist holds. At the same time, of course, we must recognize the possibility, under God’s guidance, that contemporary discussions and statements (e.g., 1983 U.S. Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogue statement on “Justification by Faith”) could lead to a revision of the Roman Catholic position regarding Tridentine dogma.
lcms.org/faqs/lcmsviews#pope

Your church’s own statement that the Church’s official dogma will have to change but until then the Papacy (right now in the person of Pope Francis he is an individual person) teaches are that of the Antichrist. When I first read this I thought talk about the mouse that roared! Your church teaches that our doctrine and that of the Lutherans are diametrically opposed to one another. You can shout that the shiny stuff under your tree is the real deal but it is still pyrite.

“Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Yes, exactly and part of my journey back home includes a Billy Graham crusade on TV. The Lord used him to tell me that I needed to bring my belief in Him from my head to my heart. That was the beginning of my journey around the spiritual world back home.

While I was protestant I read a couple of books by a protestant missionary talking about how it was easier than he thought to preach Christ. Those two books are ETERNITY IN THEIR HEARTS and PEACE CHILD. I number among the people who will not be at all surprised if I learn that Plato is in heaven.

You are being called to Catholic unity.

Annie

That Irish priest is a very wise man. But I don’t understand what point you are trying to make here about trolls. And I never see trolls around St. Patrick’s day.

So you’re taking a conversation between two posters and imputing it to Jon, who wasn’t even part of it? You will find that Jon’s views are not coterminus with EvangelCatholic’s on a whole host of issues.

Especially on the non-Catholic area! :eek:

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