LGBT: it's a choice or isn't it? Pope's message


#1

I’m totally confused now. Can someone explain what exactly the Catholic Church’s stance is on homosexuality, as far as it is a chosen disorder or not? I thought that the catechism says it is a trial for them, which to me means not something chosen, but something given by God for His own reason, and that they are called to chastity.

The Pope’s recent speech doesn’t sound like that at all, it sounds to me like he’s saying people are willingly turning from their natures to be homosexual. What??? :shrug:

“People dispute the idea that they have a nature, given to them by their bodily identity, that serves as a defining element of the human being,” he said. “They deny their nature and decide that it is not something previously given to them, but that they make it for themselves.”

“The manipulation of nature, which we deplore today where our environment is concerned, now becomes man’s fundamental choice where he himself is concerned,” he said.

huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/21/pope-anti-gay-speech_n_2344870.html?ref=topbar


#2

Sin and death entered the world because of the fall of Adam and Eve who abused their free will. We all struggle with a tendency to sin because we inherited this original sin from Adam and Eve. The various ways we struggle with sin is a cross we all have to live with until we are judged by God when we die, but sin or the inclination to sin wasn’t God’s doing.


#3

That doesn’t answer my question in any way, shape or form.


#4

How?


#5

Whether SSA individuals arise from nature or nurture, the Pope teaches that to act on SSA inclinations in sinful. Human beings have a choice to turn away from sin and live a chaste life. Sex is not a right, it is a privilege.


#6

Nature or choice? Nature.


#7

Or…

  • they weren’t born with it, but it was the result of something such as child molestation or social conditioning beginning too far back for them to remember

  • the inclination isn’t a choice

  • whether or not they act on the inclination is a choice


#8

^^this


#9

First of all, do not accept Catholic news from an anti-Catholic, anti-Christian source like HuffingtonPost. Believing such sources is the path to.Hell.

Here is the entire speech
romereports.com/palio/pope-addresses-roman-curia-explains-role-of-the-family-and-rebates-gender-ideology-english-8574.html#.UNToX3c8rHQ

People probably do not willingly choose same sex attraction but we all make choices as to how to deal with temptations.

Choosing to engage in homosexual acts or trying to redefine marriage is objectively gravely sinful.


#10

His Holiness appears to disagree. Far from allowing that even the mere inclination for homosexuality exists, what he appears to be saying is that everyone is really straight - it’s just that some of us are in rebellion against our inherent inclination for attraction towards the opposite sex.


#11

The pope wasn’t talking about homosexuality in those quotes, but perversions in modern beliefs about gender.


#12

How about letting the Pope speak for himself by quoting what he actually said?


#13

He did speak for himself. I read the complete transcript provided. You’re free to look it up yourself if you doubt me.


#14

Quote the part you are talking about, and then explain exactly what about it you disagree with and why.


#15

Here is the full text of the speech:

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2012/12/21/full-text-of-popes-address-to-the-curia/

Here is a two minute video excerpt of his delivery:

youtube.com/watch?v=RjJ8EgSPrYg

Here is a short clip of coverage from the Vatican:

youtube.com/watch?v=tEB3Qmvt75s


#16

The Chief Rabbi of France, Gilles Bernheim, has shown in a very detailed and profoundly moving study that the attack we are currently experiencing on the true structure of the family, made up of father, mother, and child, goes much deeper. While up to now we regarded a false understanding of the nature of human freedom as one cause of the crisis of the family, it is now becoming clear that the very notion of being – of what being human really means – is being called into question. He quotes the famous saying of Simone de Beauvoir: “one is not born a woman, one becomes so” (on ne naît pas femme, on le devient).

These words lay the foundation for what is put forward today under the term “gender” as a new philosophy of sexuality. According to this philosophy, sex is no longer a given element of nature, that man has to accept and personally make sense of: it is a social role that we choose for ourselves, while in the past it was chosen for us by society. The profound falsehood of this theory and of the anthropological revolution contained within it is obvious. People dispute the idea that they have a nature, given by their bodily identity, that serves as a defining element of the human being. They deny their nature and decide that it is not something previously given to them, but that they make it for themselves. According to the biblical creation account, being created by God as male and female pertains to the essence of the human creature.

The part I bolded illustrates that his comments aren’t merely limited to questions of gender, but everything that a person’s gender implies. Man has a nature, determined by gender. And that nature is to show attraction to the opposite sex. Those who don’t do this are making a conscious choice, in every respect, to deny their nature as dictated by their gender.


#17

[quote="mlamg, post:1, topic:309055"]
I'm totally confused now. Can someone explain what exactly the Catholic Church's stance is on homosexuality, as far as it is a chosen disorder or not? I thought that the catechism says it is a trial for them, which to me means not something chosen, but something given by God for His own reason, and that they are called to chastity.

The Pope's recent speech doesn't sound like that at all, it sounds to me like he's saying people are willingly turning from their natures to be homosexual. What??? :shrug:

"People dispute the idea that they have a nature, given to them by their bodily identity, that serves as a defining element of the human being," he said. "They deny their nature and decide that it is not something previously given to them, but that they make it for themselves."

"The manipulation of nature, which we deplore today where our environment is concerned, now becomes man's fundamental choice where he himself is concerned," he said.

huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/21/pope-anti-gay-speech_n_2344870.html?ref=topbar

[/quote]

Human Nature was created a certain way. Going all the way back to Genesis we read that God decided that it was not good that Adam should be alone. So what did he do? He created Eve. He did not create another man. He then told the two creatures to be fruitful and multiply. So right from the beginning we see the two-fold purpose of Human Sexuality: unitive and procreative. Pleasure was secondary.

After the Fall, Death, Decay and Disorder were introduced. This is the present state of affairs. Human Nature is damaged. Our Sexuality is damaged. Think of it this way. Some people are blessed with great bodies. Others are not. Why? It is a consequence of the Fall. Some people are blessed with great intellect. Others are not. Why? The Fall has damaged us. Some people are blessed with a healthy mind. Others suffer from a variety of mental illnesses. Why? Again, the Fall. You see the pattern. It applies to Human Sexuality. But you will notice something. There is an Order towards which Human Nature aspires. It is the Order that existed prior to the Fall. It is the Order of the Glorified Body: perfect Beauty, perfect Intellect, a healthy Mind, etc. Now, we all each have our own particular talent, our own particular sharing in the Beauty that existed prior to the Fall. But we are also all damaged and all have our own unique cross to bear in the pilgrimage of this life. The person with the perfect body might suffer from something that does not afflict the person who suffers from a damaged sexuality, and vice versa. This is something anyone who has gone through puberty and has attended high school, quickly learns.

The Church teaches that a homosexual “orientation” is not sinful but that only homosexual acts are sinful. A homosexual orientation is the result of the Fall. It is a cross. But it is no more a cross than a person who may have been born sterile or born a hermaphrodite, or born asexual, or a person who is born mentally or physically disabled, ect. We all have crosses to bear, but for some strange reason some homosexual activists would like the rest of us to believe that their crosses are somehow special. What’s even worse, there is now an attempt to FORCE the Church to lie about the truth. This will never happen because the gates of hell will never triumph but it is shameful and cruel that many innocent Catholics are being put to the test in this manner. And what’s truly ironic is that many homosexuals that I know became Catholic because of the Chruch’s teaching on Homosexuality. They were being starved by the lies of the prince of this world and had finally found liberation in the Church’s teaching.


#18

I think what the Holy Father is talking about is sexual complementarity and how homosexual relations deny the reality that we are wisely created in male and female form, and we use those forms in their proper roles in the marital embrace. To commit a homosexual act is to deny one’s maleness or femaleness and take on an unnatural role that is not ordered to procreation.


#19

He is talking about an erroneous philosophy that is being pushed in the culture. His talk is not about what an individual is feeling.


#20

He is not talking about homosexuality writ large, he is talking about gender identity/transsexualism, as made abundantly clear by the quote from Simone de Beauvoir: “One is not born a woman, but becomes so…” He is referring to the decidedly modern (and illogical) idea that our gender is not determined by our bodies, and thus everyone has the right to decided whether they are a man or a woman.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.