Limbo to be Cast into the Outer Darkness?


#1

This is quite the article!

fatima.org/news/newsviews/limbo.asp


#2

[quote=Marilena]This is quite the article!

fatima.org/news/newsviews/limbo.asp
[/quote]

Have you ever read this one by the same author?

thecatholicfaith.blogspot.com/2006/02/alta-vendita-and-subversion-of.html


#3

Fascinating article. I copied it for careful reading later. Thank you for posting it!
Mark


#4

[quote=USMC]Have you ever read this one by the same author?

thecatholicfaith.blogspot.com/2006/02/alta-vendita-and-subversion-of.html
[/quote]

I will look at it.


#5

[quote=Marilena]This is quite the article!

[/quote]

An article that is also full of error. :rolleyes:

This article was published on the “The Fatima Crusader” website which is run by Father Nicholas Gruner, a dissident priest that is not in good standing with the Roman Catholic Church. Gruner: Not in Good Standing with the Roman Catholic Church


#6

[quote=Matt16_18]An article that is also full of error. :rolleyes:

This article was published on the “The Fatima Crusader” website which is run by Father Nicholas Gruner, a dissident priest that is not in good standing with the Roman Catholic Church.Gruner: Not in Good Standing with the Roman Catholic Church
[/quote]

That’s great that you can bash Gruner. But is John Vennari a dissident priest full of error? You see, yes- it is on Gruner’s site, but it was written by Vennari.

Your tactics are pretty clear.

Mark
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com


#7

I don’t know who John Vennari is, but his article is full of the same paranoid claptrap that Fr. Gruner disseminates. Such as these ridiculous statements:Vatican II’s program and reforms display Liberal Catholicism’s basic components

eliminating a great deal of theology is what the Conciliar reforms are all about

Cardinal Ratzinger rejoiced that parts of Vatican II are a “counter-syllabus” This comment by I. Shawn McElhinney sums up nicely what I think about dissident “traditionalists”:What is truly ironic is that some extremist fundamentalists think that the Church since Vatican II has been engaged in a “diabolical plot” to seduce Protestants into the Church. Like her Spouse the Church gets lambasted from every angle including those who claim to be “loyal” to her. The sad truth though is that hardcore “trads” such as the three “greatest ‘trad’ webmasters” (falsely so-called) are as loyal to the Church as Judas was to Our Lord. So great and loyal to the Church that no bishop whose communion is recognized by the Pope would endorse their websites … (Arguably they are proximate to heresy too.)


#8

I’ve yet to read a “point by point” rebuttal of the “facts” that Father Gruner advances in his own defense. The following quote outlines the issues:

Recognizing that Father Gruner has every right under Church law to advocate his views on the Fatima Message, [Vatican Secretary of State, Angelo Sodano] devised…a…plan to silence this inconvenient priest by indirection. Father Gruner’s Italian bishop-who had earlier told Father Gruner of “worried signals from the Vatican Secretary of State”(10)-was pressured to order him to leave Canada and “return” to Avellino, Italy, where he had been ordained back in 1976, unless he found a new bishop to incardinate him. (11) Sodano’s apparatus then took steps to prevent any other bishop in the world from incardinating Father Gruner. At the end of this…process, the plan was to announce (through the Bishop of Avellino) that since Father Gruner had “failed” to be incardinated by another bishop, he must return to Avellino within 30 days (abandoning his entire priestly life’s work) or he would be “suspended” for “disobedience.”(12) But the Sodano apparatus did not foresee at least two developments:

First, despite all efforts to block it, the Archbishop of Hyderabad agreed to incardinate Father Gruner. The Archbishop issued a formal decree of incardination declaring that “evil forces have conspired to destroy your [Father Gruner’s] work of love” and that “bureaucratic forces cannot stifle God’s work.”(13) In subsequent canonical proceedings, the Sodano apparatus (speaking this time through the Congregation for the Clergy) arbitrarily asserted that the incardination in Hyderabad was “non-existent” and that Father Gruner must still return to Avellino or be “suspended” for “disobedience” since he had “failed” to be incardinated elsewhere. The Archbishop of Hyderabad, rejecting this arbitrary claim, strongly reaffirmed his decree of incardination with a new decree, after examining all the pertinent documents and finding no defect in the incardination.(14)

Second, since Father Gruner had been living in Canada with the written permission of the Bishop of Avellino since 1978, under Italian law it was legally impossible for him to return to Italy even if the order to return were just and valid. The Bishop had never taken any steps to obtain proper permissions for a foreign priest to enter an Italian diocese, including an entry visa supported by written commitments that the Bishop provide financial support, medical coverage and pension-for a priest who had been absent, with his permission, for more than 16 years and had not received one penny of support from Avellino in all that time. The Bishop of Avellino has since ignored two written requests from Father Gruner for an explanation of how he can be expected to “return” to Avellino without any visa or guarantees of financial support, as required by Italian immigration law.(15) Nor has the Bishop ever responded to Father Gruner’s notification that the Archbishop of Hyderabad considered Father Gruner to be incardinated in Hyderabad.(16) Clearly, the Bishop himself has no interest in Father Gruner’s “return” to the Diocese of Avellino, which would involve legal work and substantial expense for the lifetime support and maintenance of a foreign-born priest whose services the Bishop has never needed. The Bishop is but a pawn in a canonical game contrived by the Sodano apparatus.

In short, Father Gruner finds himself in a situation quite analogous to that of our hypothetical unjustly punished child:

First, Father Gruner has been punished for nothing. That is, he has been punished for “failing” to be incardinated elsewhere, when in fact he has been incardinated elsewhere. Like the child who did not steal the cookies, Father Gruner did not “fail” to be incardinated. Even more insulting to one’s sense of justice is that those who declare Father Gruner’s “failure” to be incardinated are the very ones who tried to block his incardination anywhere in the world besides Avellino, and who now arbitrarily assert that even the valid incardination in Hyderabad-which Father Gruner obtained despite their interference-is “non-existent.”

Second, Father Gruner has been punished for failing to do the impossible. That is, Father Gruner’s persecutors in the Vatican bureaucracy have done everything in their power to make it impossible for Father Gruner to achieve incardination, and even when he did achieve it (in Hyderabad), they called the incardination “non-existent.” Furthermore, even if Father Gruner were not incardinated in Hyderabad (and he is), he has been punished for “failing” to return to Italy when his return is impossible because the Bishop of Avellino has never complied with Italian immigration law.

See: catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/mary/ferrara-gruner1.htm

Keep the Faith
jmt


#9

[quote=Matt16_18]An article that is also full of error. :rolleyes:

This article was published on the “The Fatima Crusader” website which is run by Father Nicholas Gruner, a dissident priest that is not in good standing with the Roman Catholic Church. Gruner: Not in Good Standing with the Roman Catholic Church
[/quote]

Matt16:18,

please, let me start off by saying that I have read many of your apologetics articles in defense of the Catholic Faith and I highly regard your work. I’ve referenced your writings many times during studies and discussions of my own. May I ask, are you familiar with the “facts” that Fr Gruner advances in his defense? Have you ever encounted a “point by point” rebutal of any article he has written regarding his understanding of Our Lady of Fatima’s messages? If so, I do very much want to read them. I’m not a “Traditionalist” but I do think Fr Gruner is being treated unjustly.

From your link I noted the following from the first article listed:

Catholic World News : CORRECTION: re. Father Nicholas GrunerVATICAN (CWNews.com) – A story on the work of Father Nicholas.

Apr. 06, 1998

VATICAN (CWNews.com) – A story on the work of Father Nicholas Gruner, which appeared in Catholic World News last week, contained several errors.

Father Gruner was ordained to the priesthood-- not suspended from priestly duties-- in 1976. He was threatened with suspension by the Diocese of Avellino in May 1995, when he failed to obey an order to return to that diocese after an approved absence of many years. Father Gruner has appealed that suspension, and under canon law the suspension does not officially take effect while the appeal is in process.

Supporters of Father Gruner charge that the order to return to Avellino was the result of intense lobbying by “Vatican bureaucrats” who have consistently opposed his Fatima crusades. In 1992 the Vatican Congregation for the Clergy took the unusual step of announcing that these Fatima conferences were undertaken without ecclesial approval.

Does this illustrate a too ready willingness to pass judgement before all facts are accounted for? Has Fr Gruner’s appeal been ruled on? I mean, I don’t know, but it would seem to matter.

Keep the Faith
jmt


#10

[quote=Matt16_18] I don’t know who John Vennari is, but his article is full of the same paranoid claptrap that Fr. Gruner disseminates.
[/quote]

I am kind of suprised you do not know of Vennari. Your work has been around for a number of years, so I presumed you would know of other apologists.

[quote=Matt16_18] Such as these ridiculous statements:Vatican II’s program and reforms display Liberal Catholicism’s basic components

eliminating a great deal of theology is what the Conciliar reforms are all about

Cardinal Ratzinger rejoiced that parts of Vatican II are a “counter-syllabus”
[/quote]

I don’t agree with everything he says, either, but none of those statements are baseless. I would attribute them more to “the spirit of Vat. II”, then Vat. II itself, but it is hard to seperate the two.

[quote=Matt16_18] This comment by I. Shawn McElhinney sums up nicely what I think about dissident “traditionalists”:What is truly ironic is that some extremist fundamentalists think that the Church since …
[/quote]

The link does not work.

I think you are wrong. I do not think that Gruner is a traditionalist (I could be wrong). I think he is part of the Novus Ordo order. Still I belive he is very orthodox (though there is a slight issue of obedience, but I would not say to the point of scism).

You still dodged the main point I was making:

“Your tactics are pretty clear.”

You were using a controversy of Gruner to attack Vennari. If you disagree with the article, deal with the issues in the article, and explain your perspective. Don’t rely on ad homenim attacks. I have read some of your work in the past, and I think you are capable of an intelligent debate.

Mark
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com


#11

Matthew16_18:

I just saw this: forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=1329655&postcount=8

I also thought you were “that” Matthew1618.

I was surprised he would make a comment like that. See, you are giving the other Matthew1618 a bad name :wink: .

Mark
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com


#12

[quote=trth_skr] I was surprised he would make a comment like that. See, you are giving the other Matthew1618 a bad name .
[/quote]

Lol. I hope not. :wink:

The link does not work.

Here is the url: matt1618.freeyellow.com/appendix1.html

[quote=] You were using a controversy of Gruner to attack Vennari.
[/quote]

I was only pointing out that one should be skeptical because this article was posted on a website that is known for extremist views. I read the article by John Vennari – he thinks that Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, and the Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith, Archbishop Levada, are a bunch of “liberals” that are conspiring to destroy the Catholic Church. Sheesh! What sane Catholic listens to such idiocy?

Don’t rely on ad homenim attacks.

After denigrating Archbishop Levada, John Vennari calls Levada “an American from San Francisco.” I assume from that snide little comment we are supposed to draw the conclusion that Archbishop Levada is a “liberal” that supports sodomy too. Why else would John Vennari mention the fact that he was the Archbishop of San Francisco?


#13

Here is what Our Lady said at Quito in 1634:

At the end of the 19th century and for a large part of the 20th, various heresies will flourish on this earth which will have become a free republic. The precious light of the Faith will go out in souls because of the almost total moral corruption: in those times there will be great physical and moral calamities, in private and in public. The little number of souls keeping the Faith and practising the virtues will undergo cruel and unspeakable suffering; through their long drawn out martyrdom many of them will go to their death because of the violence of their sufferings, and those will count as martyrs who gave their lives for Church or for country. To escape from being enslaved by these heresies will call for great strength of will, constancy, courage and great trust in God…

“ In those days the spirit of impurity which like a deluge of filth will flood the streets, squares and public places. The licentiousness will be such that there will be no more virgin souls in the world.

*“By having gained control of all the social classes, the sects will tend to penetrate with great skill into the hearts of families to destroy even the children. The devil will take glory in feeding perfidiously on the heart of children. The innocence of childhood will almost disappear. Thus priestly vocations will be lost, it will be a real disaster. Priests will abandon their sacred duties and will depart from the path marked out for them by God.” *(Quito, Ecuador, 2nd February 1634)."

christthekingmaine.com/Our_Lady_of_La_Sallette.html

My hope is that Benedict XVI will help reverse this. I just found this tonight. I have heard of OL of Quito, but was not aware of how prophetic her message was.

Mark
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com


#14

Here are some other prophecies:
unitypublishing.com/prophecy/HildigardSaint.htm

…Mother Shipton (16th century):

The great chastisement will come when carriages go without horses and many accidents fill the world with woe. It will come when thoughts are flying
around the earth in the twinkling of an eye [TV, internet,telephone…], when long tunnels are made for horse-less machines, when men can fly in the air and ride under the sea, when ships are wholly made of metal, when fire and water ‘great marvels do’ (steam engine), when even the poor can read books, when many taxes are levied for war…

…St. Anthony of the Desert (4th century):

Men will surender to the spirit of the age. They will say that if they had lived in our day, Faith would be simple and easy. But in their day, they will
say, things are complex; the Church must be brought up to date and made meaningful to the day’s problems [Vatican II?]. When the Church and the world are one, then those days are at hand because our Divine Master placed a barrier between His things and the things of the world…

… Anna Catherine Emmerich

"Among the strangest things that I saw, were long processions of bishops. Their thoughts and utterances were made known to me through images issuing from their mouths. Their faults towards religion were shown by external deformities … I saw what I believe to be nearly all the bishops of the world, but only a small number were perfectly sound. I also saw the Holy Father - God-fearing and prayerful. Nothing left to be desired in his appearance, but he was weakened by old age and by much suffering. His head was lolling from side to side, and it dropped onto his chest as if he was falling asleep …Then I saw that everything pertaining to Protestantism was gradually gaining the upper-hand, and the Catholic religion fell into complete decadence. Most priests were lured by the glittering but false knowledge of young school-teachers, and they all contributed to the work of destruction. In those days, Faith will fall very low, and it will be preserved in some places only, in a few cottages and in a few families which God has protected from disasters and wars.

[size=2]"… As we came nearer, however, the fire abated and we saw the blackened building. We went through a number of magnificent rooms, and we finally reached the Pope. He was sitting in the dark and slept in a large arm chair. He was very ill and weak; he could no longer walk. The ecclesiastics in the inner circle looked insincere and lacking in zeal; I did not like them. I told the Pope of the bishops who are to be appointed soon. I told him also that he must not leave Rome. If he did so, it would be chaos. He thought that the evil was inevitable and he should leave in order to save many things beside himself. He was very much inclined to leave Rome, and he was insistently urged to do so."
[/size]

Maybe Mel Gibson has more wisdom than he is given credit for (he modeled part of the Passion on the visions of Anna Catherine Emmerich).

God Bless John Paul II.

Mark
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com


closed #15

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