Lipping the Consecration During Mass


#1

Hello again brothers and sisters,
Is it proper for one to recite to oneself, by moving one's lips, but not speaking out loud, the words of the Consecration when the priest is doing so? I do this...I tend always to do it...and I am wondering whether there is any doctrinal problem with the practice.
Thanks again, and God bless your day!
David


#2

I would think that as long as you don't believe you need to do it or must do it for any type of validity of the sacrament, there probably isn't a problem with it. However it may be a distraction for others who may notice you doing this during the pinnacle of the Mass.


#3

[quote="gelsbern, post:2, topic:318065"]
I would think that as long as you don't believe you need to do it or must do it for any type of validity of the sacrament, there probably isn't a problem with it. However it may be a distraction for others who may notice you doing this during the pinnacle of the Mass.

[/quote]

If it is a distraction, they sure aren't focused on what's going on at the altar, are they? ;)

You are not doing anything wrong, you are probably doing this to internalize what is being said and to improve your focus on the Consecration, much like some people move their lips when they read. You are not imitating the priest. Don't worry about it.


#4

Dear Carolyn,

That is my point exactly: I so this as a reader does it to understand fully what he is reading; I am internalizing the words because they are, as gelsbern wrote, the "pinnacle" of the Mass.

Thanks for your response.

David


#5

[quote="daoud62, post:1, topic:318065"]
Hello again brothers and sisters,
Is it proper for one to recite to oneself, by moving one's lips, but not speaking out loud, the words of the Consecration when the priest is doing so? I do this...I tend always to do it...and I am wondering whether there is any doctrinal problem with the practice.
Thanks again, and God bless your day!
David

[/quote]

so do I! I tend to do the end bit where he goes ' look not on our sins but on the faith of your church'.... such beautiful words


#6

I would say a definite no.

There is a reason why the Missal says that Priest alone speaks, or Priest with Concelebrants. Believe it or not, it is in fact a Liturgical Abuse for you to do such things. Whilst it will not effect the validity or the licity of the Mass, it is merely disobedience to the Missal that has been developed, compiled and approved by the Church. The Church is the Divine authority on the earth, in terms of doctrines and liturgy, it is the earthly voice of God's will - as the Catholic Church was the one true Church established by Jesus Christ, the perfect man.

It is no sin, to do such things, but one must remember; the Priest alone can offer the Holy Mass, we can only participate. Yes, listen to the words and allow your soul to be opened to witness of the Sacrifice that lays before your very eyes, but there is no need for you to speak, when it is the Priests role to speak at this point.

Would it be weird if a Priest said "The Lord be with you" then joined in on the reply "And with your spirit" - Yes, it would be weird; because it is the Server's (and the people's) role to speak at that particular point.

We must stay in obedience to the liturgy; T*he Catholic Church is the Universal Church.* Therefore we must enforce unity in our way of praying, maintain tradition and authentic faith.

Say the Black; Do the Red.

In magnam fidem,
Deus Salus Nostra :gopray2:

P.S. Sorry for the big Theological rant but what I say is important, and said in good faith and obedience.


#7

[quote="DeusSalusNostra, post:6, topic:318065"]
I would say a definite no.

There is a reason why the Missal says that Priest alone speaks, or Priest with Concelebrants. Believe it or not, it is in fact a Liturgical Abuse for you to do such things. Whilst it will not effect the validity or the licity of the Mass, it is merely disobedience to the Missal that has been developed, compiled and approved by the Church. The Church is the Divine authority on the earth, in terms of doctrines and liturgy, it is the earthly voice of God's will - as the Catholic Church was the one true Church established by Jesus Christ, the perfect man.

It is no sin, to do such things, but one must remember; the Priest alone can offer the Holy Mass, we can only participate. Yes, listen to the words and allow your soul to be opened to witness of the Sacrifice that lays before your very eyes, but there is no need for you to speak, when it is the Priests role to speak at this point.

Would it be weird if a Priest said "The Lord be with you" then joined in on the reply "And with your spirit" - Yes, it would be weird; because it is the Server's (and the people's) role to speak at that particular point.

We must stay in obedience to the liturgy; T*he Catholic Church is the Universal Church.* Therefore we must enforce unity in our way of praying, maintain tradition and authentic faith.

Say the Black; Do the Red.

In magnam fidem,
Deus Salus Nostra :gopray2:

P.S. Sorry for the big Theological rant but what I say is important, and said in good faith and obedience.

[/quote]

While I can understand a part of what you are saying here, I believe that it goes too far.

The missal has these things printed in it. Because they are there, we can "read along" with the priest. Now - If a person - when reading - "lips" the words (without audibly speaking) have they crossed some sort of "line in the sand"?

When I attend the EF mass, I read the English prayers while the priest is saying them in Latin. Am I guilty of abuse in this case?

Like I say - I think you make some good points...but I think that you go too far (especially with your "thumbs down" emoticon at the beginning).

Peace
James


#8

I have no idea what goes on in the brain when people silently move their lips.

What I do know is that it does engage the brain more fully. When our choir sings and I am waiting for my part's entrance I find that I often have to mouth a part that is already singing; it engages the part of my brain that has the memory of the pitch I need to come in on and it helps me establish the rhythm. What it doesn't do is release me from the responsibility to watch the conductor and follow his instructions.

The spoken word also has rhythm and pitch. I would imagine that mouthing the words engages more parts of the brain than either strictly listening or strictly reading. I know that a selection of the population (my husband is in this group) does not completely comprehend words unless it speaks them.

What I would think is that people who mouth words that they do not have the authority to speak should try to mentally submit to the speed, rhythm, pitch, intonation, pronunciation, etc. of the speaker.


#9

[quote="DeusSalusNostra, post:6, topic:318065"]

It is no sin, to do such things, but one must remember; the Priest alone can offer the Holy Mass, we can only participate. Yes, listen to the words and allow your soul to be opened to witness of the Sacrifice that lays before your very eyes, but there is no need for you to speak, when it is the Priests role to speak at this point.
.

[/quote]

By reading along and "lipping" the words, the poster IS participating in the Mass. They are not suggesting that they themselves are offering it.

Many here have suggested that it is fine to pray the rosary during the Latin Mass because your presence makes you a participant in the actions on the altar. Yet, a poster lips the words of consecration and they are told that they shouldn't. Now, which action better shows engaging with the whole heart, the whole mind and the whole soul?


#10

I don't believe that silently praying the Eucharistic prayers along with the priest is a bad thing. After all, all missals include the text for the people to read. However, the people must never be taught that they are somehow "co-consecrating" the Holy Eucharist.


#11

Deus Salus Nostra is right though. Although, I tend to think that the people who do so, do so innocently enough. But, all in all, there is a reason for not doing so, so I don't. I listen, but thats just me. I was taught by very devout parents and Franciscan and Domincan's. :thumbsup:


#12

[quote="allhers, post:11, topic:318065"]
Deus Salus Nostra is right though. Although, I tend to think that the people who do so, do so innocently enough. But, all in all, there is a reason for not doing so, so I don't. I listen, but thats just me. I was taught by very devout parents and Franciscan and Domincan's. :thumbsup:

[/quote]

However I remember that when I was in school that teachers taught us not to mouth words when we were silently reading our school lessons or following along when someone else was reading aloud. Perhaps it is because they considered it impolite.

I tend to think it was more like forcing left-handers to use their right hand; it was a lack of understanding that some people are wired differently from others.

Mouthing words is not the same as reading aloud.


#13

[quote="CB_Catholic, post:3, topic:318065"]
If it is a distraction, they sure aren't focused on what's going on at the altar, are they? ;)

You are not doing anything wrong, you are probably doing this to internalize what is being said and to improve your focus on the Consecration, much like some people move their lips when they read. You are not imitating the priest. Don't worry about it.

[/quote]

Yep, I was giving a reason why it might be a bad idea. I apparently wasn't clear.


#14

[quote="daoud62, post:1, topic:318065"]
Hello again brothers and sisters,
Is it proper for one to recite to oneself, by moving one's lips, but not speaking out loud, the words of the Consecration when the priest is doing so? I do this...I tend always to do it...and I am wondering whether there is any doctrinal problem with the practice.
Thanks again, and God bless your day!
David

[/quote]

Why don't you ask your priest? He is the trained expert. The rest of us can give opinions only.


#15

[quote="DeusSalusNostra, post:6, topic:318065"]
I would say a definite no.

There is a reason why the Missal says that Priest alone speaks, or Priest with Concelebrants. Believe it or not, it is in fact a Liturgical Abuse for you to do such things. Whilst it will not effect the validity or the licity of the Mass, it is merely disobedience to the Missal that has been developed, compiled and approved by the Church. The Church is the Divine authority on the earth, in terms of doctrines and liturgy, it is the earthly voice of God's will - as the Catholic Church was the one true Church established by Jesus Christ, the perfect man.

It is no sin, to do such things, but one must remember; the Priest alone can offer the Holy Mass, we can only participate. Yes, listen to the words and allow your soul to be opened to witness of the Sacrifice that lays before your very eyes, but there is no need for you to speak, when it is the Priests role to speak at this point.

Would it be weird if a Priest said "The Lord be with you" then joined in on the reply "And with your spirit" - Yes, it would be weird; because it is the Server's (and the people's) role to speak at that particular point.

We must stay in obedience to the liturgy; T*he Catholic Church is the Universal Church.* Therefore we must enforce unity in our way of praying, maintain tradition and authentic faith.

Say the Black; Do the Red.

In magnam fidem,
Deus Salus Nostra :gopray2:

P.S. Sorry for the big Theological rant but what I say is important, and said in good faith and obedience.

[/quote]

Liturgical abuse? really?


#16

[quote="DeusSalusNostra, post:6, topic:318065"]
I would say a definite no.

There is a reason why the Missal says that Priest alone speaks, or Priest with Concelebrants. Believe it or not, it is in fact a Liturgical Abuse for you to do such things.

[/quote]

So you are contending that mouthing words = speaking?

I do not believe we have established that this is the case. In fact I think the fundamental question raised in this thread is whether or not mouthing words is the same as speaking words (whether this takes place at Mass or anywhere else.)


#17

[quote="robwar, post:15, topic:318065"]
Liturgical abuse? really?

[/quote]

A member of the laity reciting any of the eucharistic prayer is a liturgical abuse.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

I think DeusSalusNostra is correct in what he has posted so far in so far as reciting any part of the Eucharistic Prayer.

I don't believe there has been any formal comment from the Church regarding "lipping" the words. I assume you mean mouthing the words? I think the following from the General Instruction of the Roman Missal is notable "

"The Eucharist Prayer demands that all listen to it with reverence and in silence." (No 78)

I don't believe mouthing the words would be considered reverent.

Canon Law has the following to say :

It is possibly a bit of a stretch but when he speaks the priest does mouth (or lip) the words.


#18

mouthing the words is not speaking them and if the OP is doing it in order to help himself follow the priest as a way of focus then it is not liturgical abuse. The real expert Op should ask is his priest. None of us here no matter how many Church documents we can quote is an expert and the final interpretation should come from the clergy trained in this, not any of us. Moving one’s lips as a form of focus is just that and actually none of anyone’s business, he isn’t disturbing anyone around him and is probably more involved with the Mass than someone who is there is body but no even focused on the priest but thinking about what they are doing afterwards.


#19

[quote="robwar, post:18, topic:318065"]
mouthing the words is not speaking them and if the OP is doing it in order to help himself follow the priest as a way of focus then it is not liturgical abuse. The real expert Op should ask is his priest. None of us here no matter how many Church documents we can quote is an expert and the final interpretation should come from the clergy trained in this, not any of us. Moving one's lips as a form of focus is just that and actually none of anyone's business, he isn't disturbing anyone around him and is probably more involved with the Mass than someone who is there is body but no even focused on the priest but thinking about what they are doing afterwards.

[/quote]

Mouthing the words is an action proper to the celebrating priest and as such I believe it is covered by Canon 907

Unfortunately asking a priest is not a guarantee of getting an answer that is either inerrant or obedient. I would suggest the OP asks a priest with expertise that is relevant.


#20

Dear brothers and sisters,
You have all given me so much to think about. I see that the issue has raised the passion of both sides. Given the importance of the issue, I am going to see my parish priest about it and will of course report here on what he tells me.
Thanks again for your thoughts and prayers,
David


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