"Litmus Test" for the true Church...


#1

Basically, Catholics and Protestants will argue about this and that doctrine and the arguments seem to be endless.

To be able to recognize a true Church from that of a false Church, I want to make your comments, Protestants and Catholics, about basic morality issues that the devil is trying to confuse us believers in Christ. Here are some basic current issues, among others, affecting our faith.

  1. Gay Marriage
  2. Divorce
  3. Abortion and Contraception
  4. Cloning
  5. Stem Cell Research

This will be a “litmus test” to show if your Church teaches what is true–and you will recognize if where you are in is the true Church. I want you to be reminded one thing, Christ Church will never teach doctrines that go against the Gospel of Life.

Pio


#2

[quote=hlgomez]Basically, Catholics and Protestants will argue about this and that doctrine and the arguments seem to be endless.

To be able to recognize a true Church from that of a false Church, I want to make your comments, Protestants and Catholics, about basic morality issues that the devil is trying to confuse us believers in Christ. Here are some basic current issues, among others, affecting our faith.

  1. Gay Marriage
  2. Divorce
  3. Abortion and Contraception
  4. Cloning
  5. Stem Cell Research

This will be a “litmus test” to show if your Church teaches what is true–and you will recognize if where you are in is the true Church. I want you to be reminded one thing, Christ Church will never teach doctrines that go against the Gospel of Life.

Pio
[/quote]

That list excludes all denominations I am aware of except the Catholic Church and some fundamentalist Mormon groups(FLDS) . Of course the FLDS groups practive polygamy which would exclude them if you changed item #1 to any marriage other than 1 man and 1 woman.


#3

Those issues are excellent, but I think a better litmus test might be this:

Christ said the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church. Therefore, Christ’s Church will never change its doctrine. Has your church ever changed its position on these or other matters of moral behavior?


#4

That’s basically where this litmus test is pointing at. If anyone’s Church is teaching a doctrine that agrees with those that I stated above, then we should think a hundred times where we really stand–for Christ or against Christ? It’s very basic. There is no middle ground with Christ’s true Church.

Pio


#5

I think the best would be the Marks of the Church:
One
Holy
Catholic
Apostolic
Only the Catholic Church has all four of these.


#6

Several of the protestant denominations claim to have the four marks of the church, but have strayed in matters of morality and doctrine. I think the litmus test for the true Church is the issue of where the Petrine authority, the keys to the Kingdom lies. What Church submits to that authority?


#7

[quote=Khoria Anna]Several of the protestant denominations claim to have the four marks of the church, but have strayed in matters of morality and doctrine. I think the litmus test for the true Church is the issue of where the Petrine authority, the keys to the Kingdom lies. What Church submits to that authority?
[/quote]

I would have to disagree. Protestants may claim to have the four marks, yet they do lack them. part of the four marks is Apostolic, which means tracing back to the Apostles through St. Peter. It also means adhering to Apostolic Tradition, which no Protestant does fully.
A good website demonstrating that is this: catholic-pages.com/church/marks.asp


#8

Tanais: I’m sorry, I put my post badly. I’m in complete agreement. I should have underscored the word CLAIM in my post, too – I was getting at the issue of apostolic authority, which lies in the Chair of Peter – the Holy Father in Rome. Departure from that leads to the moral and doctrinal muddle the other ecclesial communities have found themselves in. It’s one way of demonstrating to them that they, in fact, do not have the four pillars.


#9

[quote=Khoria Anna]Tanais: I’m sorry, I put my post badly. I’m in complete agreement. I should have underscored the word CLAIM in my post, too – I was getting at the issue of apostolic authority, which lies in the Chair of Peter – the Holy Father in Rome. Departure from that leads to the moral and doctrinal muddle the other ecclesial communities have found themselves in. It’s one way of demonstrating to them that they, in fact, do not have the four pillars.
[/quote]

No need to apologize, it is a simple mistake. I will not prosecute you for it, since I myself am guilty of many. However I must congratulate you for your willingness to admit you were wrong, it is a valuable and rare trait. I applaud you, I sometimes wish I had the courage to admit it, I am rather hardheaded sometimes. But yes, the Catholic Church is the only one to fully manifest all the marks. May God be with you!


#10

There is a problem with this test. While I certainly agree that these are all issues of morality and ethics of the upmost import they are not a “Litmus” test with any validity. While it is unlikely that a true Christian group would support any of them you could easily have a totally non-Christian group (Like the Taliban) that might well be strongly against them all.

-D


#11

[quote=Dr. Colossus]Those issues are excellent, but I think a better litmus test might be this:

Christ said the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church. Therefore, Christ’s Church will never change its doctrine. Has your church ever changed its position on these or other matters of moral behavior?
[/quote]

310 Prayers for the dead were introduced
320 The lighting of candles
375 The worship of saints, about 365
394 The Mass was adopted
432 The worship of Mary began to develop
500 Priests began to assume distinctive robes
593 The doctrine of purgatory was introduced
600 Worship in Latin was mandated (since repealed)
606 Claims to Papal Supremacy took root
607 Boniface III made first Pope
650 Feasts in honor of the Virgin Mary began
709 Kissing the Pope’s foot
786 Worshipping images and relics
850 Use of “holy water” begun
995 Canonization of dead saints
998 Fasting on Fridays and during Lent
1003 Feasts for the dead were introduced
1074 Celibacy of the priesthood
1076 The dogma of Papal infallibility was announced
1090 Prayer beads
1140 The doctrine that there are seven sacraments was introduced
1184 The Inquisition
1190 Sale of Indulgences
1200 The wafer was substituted for the loaf
1215 Transubstantiation (A change of anything into something essentially different. The conversion of the substance of the Eucharistic elements into that of Christ’s body and blood; a doctrine of the Greek and Roman churches.)
1215 Confession was instituted
1220 Adoration of the Wafer (Host) (the worshipping of a piece of bread that one has become convinced is the Lord Jesus Christ)
1229 Bible forbidden to laymen
1316 The Ave Maria was introduced
1414 Cup forbidden to people at communion
1439 Doctrine of purgatory officially decreed
1439 Doctrine of the Seven Sacraments affirmed
1508 The Ave Maria approved
1534 Jesuit Order founded
1545 Tradition granted equal authority with the Bible
1546 The Apocrypha was received into the Cannon
1854 Immaculate Conception of Mary
1864 Syllabus of Errors proclaimed. The doctrine of the temporal power of the Pope proclaimed
1870 INFALLIBILITY OF THE POPE DECLARED
1950 Assumption of the Virgin Mary (the belief that the Virgin Mary ascended bodily into heaven without dying). The personal corporeal presence of the Virgin in heaven.
1965 Mary proclaimed "Mother of the Church"
1966 Pope Paul IV proclaimed an end to the traditional obligation that Catholics abstain from eating meats on Fridays.
He abolished the index of forbidden books. He demoted a whole host of saints who had been canonized, revered, and prayed to by the church previously.
A 138-page papal document (officially referred to as an “apostolic exhortation” was issued. Pope John Paul II in December dismissed the “widespread idea that one can obtain
forgiveness directly from God.” 1 Jn 1:9 clearly states, IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, HE IS FAITHFUL AND JUST TO FORGIVE US OUR SINS, AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.
Like these changes in teachings…


#12

Gator, you appear to be seriously misinformed. Almost everything you list is either false, mis-dated or not doctrine. These are standard Protestant propaganda. I suggest you read “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” by Karl Keating, available here (or at Amazon if you prefer):

shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/p-B0121.html?L+scstore+cwdw1782ff8ed58e+1100886716

Keating’s book will provide the answers you need to be more informed.

Pray for us, O holy Mother of God!


#13

[quote=tgdanne]Gator, you appear to be seriously misinformed. Almost everything you list is either false, mis-dated or not doctrine. These are standard Protestant propaganda. I suggest you read “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” by Karl Keating, available here (or at Amazon if you prefer):

shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/p-B0121.html?L+scstore+cwdw1782ff8ed58e+1100886716

Keating’s book will provide the answers you need to be more informed.

Pray for us, O holy Mother of God!
[/quote]

I love it…

First you tell me that most everything on the list is in some way wrong, term it as propaganda, then you tell me to go buy a book so that I can see the Catholic side…you can’t put forth any effort to talk to any of the points, or offer proof to support your opinion.

Why don’t you put forth enough concrete evidence to make me want to go out and do additional research.

The fact is plain and simple…the information above is supported in various forms and your fallacious unsubstantiated attack does nothing to change the facts, it only show that you can’t refute them.


#14

Dear Gator,

Please take tgdanne’s advice and find a copy of Keating’s book. Its 350 or so pages address most of the issues you raised, with ample back up from the Scriptures and from the earliest successors of the Apostles. Place it head to head with your Boettner book (or your Jack Chick books) and draw your own conclusions. You’ve presented a set of “facts” with no substantiation – please do some homework before you build on such a shaky foundation.

I’ll be praying for you.

Anna


#15

Dear Gator,
First of all, your rather verbose list contains a lot of exclamation point errors. By that I mean that are as detectable as an American tourist in London. You offer too many sweeping accusations with no substantiated proof of your claims.
You also make the classic error of confusing doctrines and disciples. One the things you cited-

[quote=Gator] 1966 Pope Paul IV proclaimed an end to the traditional obligation that Catholics abstain from eating meats on Fridays.
[/quote]

This is a VERY common error. No Catholic in their right mind claims that the Church never changes disciplines, because disciplines are not equal to doctrine. Doctrines are absolute, disciplines are relative. Disciplines are ways of acting out doctrine and vary with time and space. We Catholics cofess that our Church is infallible in areas of doctrine, no discipline. It is just a simple point.
Futhermore, gonig back to your lack of evidence, there is ample evidence to disprove your claims. You appeal to the very old and very overused “Great Apostasy” theory. You believe that the Christ’s followers, sometime after his death, apostasized from his teachings. This is also referred to as the “paganization” of the Church. However, no matter what reference date you use, you can find evidence that the doctrine existed before that date, e.g.

[quote=Gator]1545 Tradition granted equal authority with the Bible
[/quote]

“But the admonition that he [Cyprian] gives us, ‘that we should go back to the fountain, that is, to apostolic tradition, and thence turn the channel of truth to our times,’ is most excellent, and should be followed without hesitation” -St. Augustine (On Baptism, Against the Donatists, 5:26[37]). 400 A.D.
“That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them [heretics], while cherishing with the utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the tradition of truth. . . . What if the apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the churches?” - St. Irenaeus of Lyons (Against Heresies 3:4:1). 189 A.D.
As you can see, the concept you stated is much older than you assume. The concept, if you are to take only these sources, goes back many MANY centuries ealier, if not to the apostles themselves. This is just ONE example, you could find many others as well.
As I recall you also claim that the Church corrupted the bible:

[quote=Gator]%between%

Some suggest that the Catholic Church has distorted the bible…and continues to make claims that are false.
[/quote]

However, I issue to you the same challange St. Augustine did,
"The speech on one Elpidus, who had spoken and disputed face to face against the Manichees, had already begun to affect me at Carthage, when he produced arguments from Scripture which were not easy to answer. And the answer they [the Manichees, who claimed to be the true Christians] gave seemed to me feeble - indeed they preferred not to give it in public but only among ourselves in private - the answer being that the Scriptures of the New Testament had been corrupted by some persons unknown… yet the Manicheans made no effort to produce uncorrupted copies. (Confessions, V, 11, Sheed translation)
I believe his challange still stands. I would readily advise you to pick up Mr. Keating’s book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism. Also I would recommend reading some of the early Church Fathers. God Bless,


#16

[quote=Khoria Anna]Dear Gator,

Please take tgdanne’s advice and find a copy of Keating’s book. Its 350 or so pages address most of the issues you raised, with ample back up from the Scriptures and from the earliest successors of the Apostles. Place it head to head with your Boettner book (or your Jack Chick books) and draw your own conclusions. You’ve presented a set of “facts” with no substantiation – please do some homework before you build on such a shaky foundation.

I’ll be praying for you.

Anna
[/quote]

Hmmm. I wish i would have known that this is a thread to sell books…I was hoping htat someone could address the list that I submitted. I see that only folks who are willing to spend $$ on Catholic information get to find out why it is that you all believe those items are false.

Makes me wonder if you are truely interested in explaining your religion, or make some $$ for folks.

In any event, since no one has been able to refute the items, the only conclusion to be drawn is that they are 100% correct.


#17

[quote=Gator]Hmmm. I wish i would have known that this is a thread to sell books…I was hoping htat someone could address the list that I submitted. I see that only folks who are willing to spend $$ on Catholic information get to find out why it is that you all believe those items are false.

Makes me wonder if you are truely interested in explaining your religion, or make some $$ for folks.

In any event, since no one has been able to refute the items, the only conclusion to be drawn is that they are 100% correct.
[/quote]

I have a stong sense you ignored the fact that I just addressed your claims…


#18

[quote=Tanais]I have a stong sense you ignored the fact that I just addressed your claims…
[/quote]

Quite the contrary…I did not see your post until after I posted mine…we must have been typing at the same time…


#19

[quote=Tanais]We Catholics cofess that our Church is infallible in areas of doctrine, no discipline. It is just a simple point.
[/quote]

I hear what you are saying, but I think you are splitting hairs. You do what you do…whether you call it doctrine or discipline is only a matter of symantecs. It’s obvious that there have been many instances where the catholic church has added, changed, deleted, backtracked, or otherwise changed course of direction.

I also have been unable to find many of the traditions that catholics pracitce in the bible…


#20

[quote=Gator]I hear what you are saying, but I think you are splitting hairs. You do what you do…whether you call it doctrine or discipline is only a matter of symantecs. It’s obvious that there have been many instances where the catholic church has added, changed, deleted, backtracked, or otherwise changed course of direction.

I also have been unable to find many of the traditions that catholics pracitce in the bible…
[/quote]

Call it as I wish? It is not a matter of semantics but of a clear distinction. For instance, we as Christians are not longer bound to the ceremonial, i.e. disciplinary, laws of the Old Testament, e.g. circucision. However we are still bound to be *moral and doctrinal * principles of the Old Testament. Like I said, doctrines are absolutes and eternal whereas disciplines are relative and temporal. An example from nature might help, all of matter are composed of atoms. Atoms are everywhere and you cannot have anything material without them, they are necessary for the material world and for the sake of argument absolute. However, atoms can be composed in different ways to form different objects, however these objects are not necessary and can change, thereby making them relative. Atoms are in a sense the absolute principle, the “doctrine”, of the material world. The Other thigns they form are not necessary but ways of the atoms acting out their atomness, but these things are not absolute and can change so they are the “discinplines” of the material world.
In Summary, it is not a matter of semantics.


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