Living with a Jehovah witness


#121

Hi!

Sadly, you are caught in a cult–not directly but through your husband. Cults cut off people from everyone else, even their family members. It does not matter that a person may be intelligent or not; they use mind control tactics like you are being exposed to (it is you who is wrong; everyone else is wrong; the Catholic Church is evil… those who leave the cult are evil… only we are right, the cult is true; only we can help; only we speak for God…)

You describe it but don’t even realize how odd it is; when was the last time a Catholic Priest told you or anyone else that we cannot visit/speak to other people who are not Catholics, even if they are our blood relatives?

Never!

Cults depend upon complete breaking down of their members so that they can be manipulated to accept the cult’s decrees as truth and only truth.

Cults are (well aside from the military and other paramilitary agencies) the only agencies where the individual is trained not to think or learn or accept anything outside of the cult’s purview.

There have been people who have left the cult. Contact EWTN the Journey Home, they have some reverts and converts from that cult–maybe they can help.

Maran atha!

Ange


#122

This is abuse. If you can handle it, it will be rewarded in Heaven. But if it is too much, you might have to save yourself and your children. You should probably stop talking about religion with your husband and make it very clear that you will raise your children with what you believe as a Catholic (Personally being Orthodox, I would of course recommend teaching them from the Orthodox, but we believe very similarly on most things) and will teach them that the JWs are good people but that they do not worship our Lord and God Jesus Christ.

Stop fighting over dates and things that they have answers for. If you must speak on faith, as I know I would have to in your situation, make it deeper. Discuss the great mysteries of God being unknowable, uncircumscribed, uncontainable, beyond time and space. Yet, if what Christians for 2,000 years have taught is true, Christ, who claims equality with the Father by saying that to see Him is to have seen the Father and that He comes in the Glory of God His Father, has come to dwell with us lowly creatures that are nothing and come from nothing. He chose to be contained in the Most Holy Theotokos, Mother of our God. This is a different God than the God they worship that needs His name to be vindicated, and requires the death of a perfect human to “pay” for the perfect human life that Adam lost. They believe in human sacrifice in the same manner of the native Americans to appease God. If they claim that they don’t, ask them why it was necessary for Christ to come and die. Their answer will show you this is so. If you use caution and love, you may help him see that bigger things are at stake than dates and trivialities in comparison to the meaning of the Incarnation.


#125

Hi, Tom!

Thank you for your clarification.

I don’t fault anyone’s belief–freewill.

As a Catholic, I only clarify points of Faith if I feel there’s a misrepresentation or misunderstanding.

Everything you’ve stated on this particular post is “reference” information.

There’s no need for me to qualify it differently.

Thanks again for the info.

Maran atha!

Angel


#126

Hi, Tom!

…here we have to qualify the issue.

Protestant were red-eyed against the Church murdering and destroying and desecrating… a practice that continued even until the present era (just recently England removed the law that Catholics could not be part of parliament) and in the US there were laws enacted against the “Papists” who “could not be trusted to be patriotic” (just recently a Catholic Candidate to the Supreme Court was hammered on her convictions and found “too orthodox” to serve the people–a sentiment that would cause uproars if they were directed at any one other than a Catholic).

The reality is that political power played a great deal in Luther’s revolt; there were over 300,000 deaths in the ensuing break with the Church as monarchs appropriated Luther’s estrangement for their own cause.

Freedom of religion is a misnomer used to fault the Catholic Church; Henry the 8th copied Luther in separating himself from the Church (1534) and by the time that “Christian” sought “freedom of religion” (1620) England was not a Catholic nation but had persecuted the Church to the point of killing and desecrating everything Catholic.

It’s the little things that are lost in the translations.

Maran atha!

Angel


#128

Hi, Tom!

You are correct; (just check the wikilinks); it seems that I was confusing the newer “monarchs” can marry Catholics with the 1826 emancipation where Irish Catholics were allowed to hold most parliament offices.

…and yeah, I don’t follow politics so I thought that the big deal was about supreme court nominee–now you say that most supreme court justices are Catholics? So how are they imposing their belief on abortion and same sex union (get it? :slight_smile: )?

Maran atha!

Angel


#131

No, you are not being guided by the evil one. Unfortunately, the Society has created this misconception that anything that contradicts their teachings is of Satan. When you think about it it’s rather ingenious because they have offered their followers a very easy and argument free way to avoid reading or watching anything that is viewed as Satanic in origin. It’s similar to labeling someone a liar by mere association, without ever having to prove that the person actually lied.

It’s understandably difficult for your husband to consider the real possibility that what the Watchtower has been saying is wrong. To consider this option means having to leave family and friends and severing relationships that are very dear to him. One also can’t deny that the Society’s teachings are well thought out and on the surface appear to be true. It’s only after digging deeper into their doctrines that you find them to be anything but. Sadly, by the time a brother or sister of the Kingdom Hall is confronted with these questions, their faith has already taken root into the Watchtower’s soil. Uprooting them from this belief system can be long and painful and for many the heartache is too much to bear.

It sounds like your husband doesn’t want to confront any of the sources or material that you wish to share with him. Early on I got the impression that he was willing to engage and discuss the Society’s teachings and how they compared with the Catholic Church. Now it seems like he has resorted to attacking the character of the Church by trying to shift your focus to the sinful actions of its members. He may feel that he is unable to disprove or refute your arguments and the advice he’s receiving from his congregation may be to just stop discussing the matter and be content in knowing that the Church is evil because some of its past members were less than holy.

Instead of trying to debate scripture or analyze dates and timetables, maybe it’ll be more beneficial if you just talk to him and ask him to explain what about the Society’s teachings give him comfort. Why does he feel at home in the Kingdom Hall and what keeps him coming back week after week? At least this way it gives him the opportunity to speak from his heart and not recite Watchtower and Awake reading material. Plus you may be able to pick up on something that he’s never revealed to you before.

Then maybe you can share what gives you comfort and hope and the reasons why the Catholic Church has become more appealing to you. This will open up a meaningful dialogue between you two and nobody has to feel attacked.


#133

Thank you Crusader13,
We are having some really hard times. I mentioned to him yesterday that I wanted to start taking my sons to church with me. He said no. He said that that would confuse them and that they might turn atheists. He told me this over and over when I over and over told him that they had mentioned that they would like me to teach them my faith. So when I finally gave in and said " ok fine I won’t take them with me, you can keep taking them with you but I will be reading them my daily Bible verse and if they have any questions I will answer them" when I said that he said you know what I’m not going to confuse them so I will no longer study with them, take them preaching, or take them to the hall with me. I told him that that’s not what I meant. I said “you can still take them like you had been doing but I just wanted to be able to also teach them my faith my love for God.” He didn’t have that I went to church and spoke with a sister there. I really poured out my concerns and feelings to her and she was wonderful and listened. I had been contemplating leaving but I don’t want to do that to my kids but then again it’s so tough and he makes it seem that it has been going on since I started to go back to church. I also feel like the JWs prefer men as my husband doesn’t mind that I take and teach the girls but won’t let me take or teach the boys. To which he claims that it’s because the girls haven’t chosen and the boys have. The boys are little kids 8 nd 10. Can theyvreally choose. That night since I still wanted to teach them my faith I saw nothing wrong with us both teaching them. He decided to tell the boys. They were serious, then he asked them for a hug as he cried and then they cried. He walked out and I asked the boys if they wanted to talk. They mentioned how they liked going to the hall because it was in Spanish and that way they could talk to their grandma because they were learning Spanish there and how he my younger one had made a friend and was going to miss him, how that was the only time that they got to spend with my husband and that he would sit next to them and pay attention to them, how they were excited to go preaching. I felt horrible, again I was the monster and had made my husband and my children miserable so I told them that they could keep going with and that I would not ask to take them to church with me but that if they ever had a doubt or question to not be scared to ask me. I messed the email up I had put it in two parts but I didn’t remove them right so in the continued there is another part that I will explain if needed


#134

Continued:
He came inside and told me that his dad and elder told him that I had every right to take the boys to church with me and that he had a responsibility as head of the house to teach them si he would continue teaching them. Then he proceeded to drill me telling me the Bible teaches him everything and that he’s the better person that that’s why he knows it’s the truth and to look at how I act, I don’t act like the Bible says I should. I tell him I strive to be good but that I’m not perfect and to that he says that that’s just an excuse and to look at how he’s changed but I just see that he tries to push me into joining and I can never do anything right (I’ve never pushed him to go to church with me or study Catholicism). I get this fear over me when he comes home from work or when he just wants to converse. He has said he will never be Catholic because of the killings the Catholics have done and that it’s just unbiblical and many things like celebrating birthdays is also unbiblical and holidays and supporting the troops and how we believe in hell (to which he has the wrong idea as to what we believe but won’t listen to me when I want to explain it) and purgatory and the trinity and the list goes on. Please pray for him everyone pray for my children too. I thank everyone that has helped me understand and even though I don’t reply to everyone know that I am thankful for your input, it’s just I hardly get any sleep, I have to read and type here in secret or there will be a fight if he finds out, I have little baby that wakes in the middle of the night, a toddler, two older ones and constant fights that take up a lot of time plus my duties as a house wife. So please don’t think I don’t care, I’m just overwhelmed at the moment and I can only vent right now. Thank you for taking the time to read and to reply. I appreciate the love. God bless you all always


#135

HI, Tom!

Thank you for the information; I always assumed that ‘Catholics need not apply’ was the norm. Now, if a judge professes to be Catholic but still supports abortion and homosexuality, how is that an impediment to the court? Further, if a decision (law) was established under false pretense (as abortion being health care and science not being able to determine when life begins because a human person could well conceive a horse or a cow rather than a human being [yeah, a slight facetious]) how is revisiting and correcting it not conductive to upholding the premise of the court?

Maran atha!

Angel


#136

I think we have missed each other.

Maran atha!

Angel


#137

Tom, could you not distinguish a theme from a team?

Demonstrate, through factual evidence, when the Catholic Church Taught that her members must find all people in the world to be evil? Show where the culture of the Church separate anyone from their families or from society.

The one Teaching of the Church that comes close to what you purport is the fight against heresies–which is maintained even today.

But even Luther was not excommunicated on day one!

You sound a little like Obama when he took the presidency: comparing the oppression of US females to that of other females across the world (‘no right to vote vs. the male’s right to kill the female’).

Maran atha!

Angel


#138

Sadly, you caught yourself in that net of confusion… most people promise that a Catholic spouse will be able to bring their children up in the Catholic Faith–that’s the bait; then when reality hits the turmoil begins–that’s the switch.

Catholics are at the losing end because most non-Catholic religions/sects are proactive and aggressive… but not overtly; it is like those rivers that belie their destructive power by seeming calm and gentle and sweet… once a person falls in he/she is out of their element.

What you’ve described is the typical power play. You lose. Your husband has all the big guns: power (you are not his equal), persuasion (anything that you initiate or attempt is wrong and evil) control (your children are manipulated to follow through not because they understand or believe in the cult’s religiosity but because of the amenities it provides: an environment with the grandmother, a common language, sharing time with their dad–males are attracted to emulate their fathers; yet, you lose again, because siblings emulate their siblings–the girls will eventually reason out that they do not want to lose their brothers’ and father’s affection).

I pray that you do not succumb to this horrific experience. That you retain your loyalty to God, in His Church. That the Holy Spirit Bless you with abundant Faith and Grace so that your Catholic example can win your children’s affection and they remain open to the Truth, in spite of the confusion that their father is immersing them in.

Maran atha!

Angel


#139

Sadly, there are many “macho” theologies out there. What your husband is intimating is that you do not submit to his authority. What he does not accept is his responsibility: he cannot demand that authority while remaining unfaithful to Christ.

The authority he demands comes with its own caveat: ‘husbands, love your wife as Christ Loved the Church that He gave His Life for her.’

By butchering you and oppressing you (emotionally) he is not shielding you from destruction; rather, he is the source of the destruction. How can God set him as the head of the household to whom you must submit?

That is the problem people refuse to reconcile. The purpose of a strong husband is to protect and provide for the family. Machismo is the world’s theology.

As for the list of reasons he offers against the Church, they are based on partial truths and a whole mess of anti-Catholic propaganda; this comes from the invention of the press–Protestants could not win on a plane level so they began the uncharitable and un-Christian manipulation of the mind through print.

It is the reason why less than 10 million deaths in over 2000 years which is attributed to Christians is seen more offensive than the over 200 million deaths in only the past 200 years which has been brought about by the secular powers.

Irrationality knows no limits and has no conscience.

Maran atha!

Angel


#140

It’s plain to see that he’s arguing more from emotion than reason. It’s difficult to have a logical, rational discussion with someone who’s too emotionally charged. Naturally he’s become overly defensive because without addressing your concerns he can’t give a genuine answer to your questions. It’s sort of a catch 22, he’s only willing to share the Society’s teachings on his and/or their terms, but you are prohibited from mentioning or referencing the Church’s teachings to counter his arguments.

Keep in mind though that his actions are not representative of every Jehovah’s Witness. My in-laws, much to their credit, do encourage me and my wife to ask questions and are happy to share their faith with us. It could be that your husband just needs to step back for awhile and let things cool down before trying to talk about the issue further.

It may be best at this point to just live your faith and let your actions be a testament to how God and the Catholic Church are working in your life. For many this is the best way to evangelize and it’s often more effective than debating.

I can honestly say from my own personal experience that many Witnesses are eager to share their faith out of a genuine concern for a person’s salvation. My father in-law has expressed to my wife that sometimes he is troubled by the fact that we aren’t following the “truth”. He believes that we won’t be living on Paradise Earth with the rest of the family when this system ends. Right or wrong, I can see that he’s motivated by a desire for us to be saved from annihilation.

I’m sure your husband probably shares some of these same fears, but unfortunately it sounds like he’s more concerned with being right than trying to win you over with love and compassion. There’s nothing wrong with wanting your concerns and questions to be addressed, especially if he’s going to continue attacking you for believing the teachings of the Church. Hopefully, you can at least get him to agree that if he insists on opposing the Catholic Church, then he should at least oppose it based upon the Church’s actual teachings. It’s one thing for a person to say, “I disagree with the Catholic Church because I don’t believe it’s right that we should be praying to Mary and the Saints.” Yet, it’s something completely different for a person to say, “I disagree with the Catholic Church because I don’t like that they “worship” Mary and the Saints.” This second objection is based solely upon a misunderstanding of Catholic Doctrine. It seems that your husband is falling prey to this second line of reasoning.


#141

It’s okay to acknowledge that for him, being involved with the Kingdom Hall has done good things in his life. If your children can find some enjoyment because they can spend time with their grandmother and because they take comfort knowing that the meetings are in Spanish, this is okay too. Just reaffirm to him, that you don’t have any animosity or ill will towards the Society, but your questions and concerns have not been answered or explained in a way that shows them to be true. Tell him that you don’t wish to argue or fight and that you are always willing to talk, but let him know that the discussion can’t be one sided. Explain to him that it won’t do any good for your doubt if you are forced to only read the material that he chooses to show you. Share with him that without the ability to compare what you have learned against the teachings of the Society, then it will be nearly impossible to come to a knowledge of the Truth.

Remind him that when you both are discussing your faiths, you should follow what Scripture says in 1 Peter 3:15 “Always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence;”

I will continue to pray for you and your husband as you both continue to work on this difficult situation. God Love You both!


#145

Crusader13,
Thank you for your time and effort. I can see that my husband does want me to go into the truth and he’s been told by the elders that since he’s a JW and I support his going that I am saved do to him. So I don’t know why he pushes so much. He’s told me time and time again that he can’t understand why Catholics support the troops and participate in voting that it is unbiblical. Is it really against the Bible to do such things and when is killing ok? I see that in the Old Testament God even commended some kings to destroy others. When he didn’t want to work overtime because he felt God didn’t want him to put too much effort into the worldly things and should instead focus on spending more time with me and the kids, he mentioned a little phrase that he says is in the Bible to why he should work but not over time it goes like this in Spanish "a Cesar lo de Cesar " or in English I believe it’s “to Caesar what is Caesar’s” I really don’t know if that’s how you spell that name. What does that mean?


#146

Continued:
He gives me the impression that we are to do what the law states which is to work 40 hours but that there is no need for more as God requires balance


#147

The verse he is quoting is from Matthew 22, where the Pharisees asked Jesus whether or not it was lawful to pay taxes. They only asked this question because they thought they could trap Jesus by His answer. The entire incident can be found in Matthew 22: 15-22. The quote your husband referenced is "Then he said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

The issue of working overtime isn’t usually one that pertains to being biblical or not. Some people work overtime (OT) because they have a goal that they are working towards, such as paying off debt or saving up for a large purchase. Others may work OT because that extra income is crucial to them for paying rent/mortgage or just being able to put food on the table. In either case, spending time with family is always important and one shouldn’t get so busy at work that they grow apart from their loved ones. One of the biggest regrets that people have as they near the end of their life, is that they wish they hadn’t worked so much. They look back on their life and realize that they missed out on so much, especially when it comes to their children. This could be what your husband is afraid of.

Too often many people equate killing with murder. To shoot and kill an intruder that has broken into your home is not the same as murder. When it comes to war the Catholic Church rightly teaches in the Catechism, paragraphs 2302-2317, that a nation has a right to defend itself against an aggressor. The Crusades and Inquisitions are two of the most commonly used examples by non-Catholics to show that the Church isn’t what it claims to be. However, the Crusades and the Inquisition are also two of the most commonly misunderstood aspects of our faith.


#148

Thank you that makes a lot of sense. Now tell me this verse that he use doesn’t it apply to let’s say voting and military? Isn’t voting a right and a privilege? Voting doesn’t take away our devotion and loyalty to God as well as the military or how do Catholics view this? Because he says that the Bible states that God says that we shouldn’t be part of this world and that those are part of this world and that God also states that the world cannot govern themselves and when we vote and support the troops and things like that, that we are trying to govern ourselves which is going against God just like Adam and Eve did when they went against God and tried to govern themselves by taking the fruit and listening to satan.


#149

On the issue of voting, this is not unbiblical in and of itself. Voting for unbiblical laws, such as abortion, is sinful, but the mere act of voting shouldn’t be considered so.

The Witnesses don’t believe in voting or any government service, as I’m sure you’re aware of. Most of their beliefs I feel are personal decisions that as Witnesses they choose to uphold. However, I don’t believe that their teachings on such things as not voting and choosing not to recite the Pledge of Allegiance have any basis in Scripture. I know they feel that since Satan is currently ruling this present system of things, that all nations and governments are by default, under his influence. This I believe, is one of the main driving forces behind their teachings on separating themselves from any government service or show of support.

However, in Scripture you find a different point of view. Look at Romans 13: 1-6,

> Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, **respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.**

Paul was well aware that secular governments and authorities were not put in place to oppose and persecute their people. Naturally, history can show that there has been no shortage of evil rulers and governments who have enslaved and murdered their own citizens. However, he knew that governments and people of authority were going to be needed to help guide and provide for the people. This is why it is important to vote and work hard to ensure that our own government continues to uphold the truths and principles on which it was founded.

I find the approach that the Witnesses hold to, of choosing to avoid any form of government or political involvement is to invite disaster.

However, I know many who still believe that Armageddon is very near and the teachings of the Society still promote this. I’ve heard my in-laws mention this view several times. They always say “None of this will matter in the new system.” Unfortunately, it matters now.


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