Lockdowns never again: Sweden was right, and we were wrong

So far that is the only measurable characteristic that measures how well Sweden’s policy is doing. If there is something else inherent in the Swedish people that makes them resistant to the virus, that is good, but it is just a lucky happenstance and not the result of Swedish policy, which is what this thread is about.

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As per Zzyzx_Road . . .

Sweden’s death rate per million . . .

572

New Jersey’s is . . . .

1786

Not LeafByNiggle . . .

“Wow. That is revealing.”

LeafByNiggle making excuses . . .

These are not comparable, because the NY and NJ experienced their infections much earlier . . .

I am surprised a math guy would suggest this Leaf.

If you think “later” is so good, now IS “later” so we should ALSO do away with masks mandates, social distance mandates, etc. in the U.S.

Right?

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The population density of New Jersey is 1211 people per square mile. The population density of Sweden is 64 people per square mile. The math says Sweden has 5% of the population density of New Jersey, so Sweden is social distancing already by virtue of the people being so spread out. The experience of an infection is affected by population density in a big way. It is surprising that Sweden is doing as badly as they are, given how spread out they are.

It is exactly because I am a math guy that I refuse to ignore relevant mathematical details.

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LeafByNiggle giving you readers irrelevant population density statistics (because it ignores the fact that almost 90% of Swedes are urban dwellers) . . .

The population density of Sweden is 64 people per square mile.

So now it’s the population density’s fault.

Leaf . . .

It is exactly because I am a math guy that I refuse to ignore relevant mathematical details.

Then you need to apply the public health facts to the integral calculus and admit that area under the curve remains the same with these public health measures taken (even though the shape of the curve changes) to “flatten the curve” (which have been draconianly continued despite the health system not being destroyed).

America never signed onto that. It was a bait and switch by leftist politicians (whom I now have even less trust for if that is possible).

Flattening the curve just changes the “when” the infections occur. Not the “if” or the severity.

From here . . .

As Dr. Lisa Maragakis, Senior Director of Infection Prevention at Johns Hopkins Medical School explained, flattening the curve means that “ the same large number of patients arrived at the hospital at a slower rate. [emphasis mine]”

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But in keeping with the comparison of death rates in gateway cities in a country, Stockholm gives a more accurate picture of deaths per mill pop.

NY: 1691
Stockholm: 2400

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Even Sweden’s urban centers are not as dense as New York City:

Stockholm: 13,000 / mi2
Gothenburg: 3,400 / mi2
Malmö: 10,490 / mi2

vs.:

New York City: 26,403 / mi2 where almost half the population of the state lives

That is not true. It assumes that everyone is going to contract the virus. That is a very pessimistic view that is not supported by science - especially if a vaccine becomes available.

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LeafByNiggle . . .

Even Sweden’s urban centers are not as dense as New York City

But I didn’t say New York city did I?

Look. If I find numbers where it is worse with mandated masking etc., it won’t make any difference to you will it?

Why not just admit Sweden now has a degree of protection that surpasses other countries?

Which is why even the leftist WHO referred to Sweden as a “model country” (I am going from memory on that quote) as to how we should be approaching corona virus.

There is no evidence for the social mandates being carried out. They are all extrapolations and projections and possibilities.

None!

And I know there is no evidence.

Add into that the ridiculousness of these mandates being carried out (Democrat politicians exempting themselves in person or even by law, people wearing masks on their chins, the same masks being used day after day, consideration of infections due to Government-mandated intra-oral carbonic acid formation almost certainly resulting in “mask-mouth”, exempting leftist rioters, and other risk-benefit ratios that are never considered) and the purported “science” is even more childish.


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This is part of the problem with the global warming spoof too.

I have caught them pulling these stunts innumerable times.

And your guys go along with them instead of this phantom “science”.

(Which is why the Cuomo supporters have refused to condemn Cuomo for violating the “science” even here on CAF.)

Just admit it.

There is no hard evidence for any of this and risk-benefit ratios are being ignored.

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Leaf . . .

That is a very pessimistic view . . .

I just showed you that the people who are going to get corona, are going to get corona.

I never said “everyone” is going to get it.

The mask game has never been implimented to save lives except by NOT destroying our health care system.
(“Flattening the curve”. Remember THAT Leaf?)

And all the fallacious equivocation of what I actually said, is not going to change this fact.

Not to mention ignoring risk-benefit ratios that national leftist leaders continue to pretend do not exist.

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Because that only applies to a very few countries. Most countries have more protection because of the aggressive public health measures they have taken.

Your belief. Not mine.

I have said that the March 25 ruling was a mistake. But I don’t condemn him for it because he corrected it two weeks later.

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LeafByNiggle . . .

Most countries have more protection because of the aggressive public health measures they have taken.

They are immunologically “naked” to a large extent.

Immunologically “naked” is not “protection” in the fuller sense.
That is mere avoidance.

Which is almost certainly part of WHY
the WHO disagrees with your thesis.

.

Cathoholic on people wearing their masks on their chins (we have all seen this),
politicians ignoring these mandates (you can see Cuomo doing so above. I included photos.
Rioters (we have all seen the photos) ignoring these whie leftist politicians cheer them on until they show up at their homes, etc.

But who cares when your mind is already made up?

LeafByNiggles response?

Your belief. Not mine.

Go figure.(??) An illustration of just what I am talking about.

I have assumed nothing.

I don’t care about comparing with other countries. I am looking at the death rate compared to other things.

People want to run around in fear over something that doesn’t kill as much as many other things we live with every day.

What exactly are their deaths due to cancer?
What about heart disease?
Car accidents?

Why would we not call for an immediate shut down over these?

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The population density of Stockholm is 13,000 per square mile according to https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/stockholm-population

I’m just glad I live where I do. People around here aren’t wearing diapers on their faces. Even the cops don’t comply.

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vz71 . . .

Why would we not call for an immediate shut down over these?

Not only that but the shutdown is augmenting these other problems (another thing the national leftists IGNORE).

For example, I cannot get in to see my oncologist (we do video conferencing). Chemo and other anti-cancer regimens are being dangerously postponed for some other people over corona mania.

There are a LOT of “side effects” with these unproven mandates made up by bureaucrats.

The bit about population density by others above is a ruse.

If they were so inclined to “open things up” with less population density, they would be publicly calling out Newsome in California for goofy universal implimentation of his mandates (a lot of California is quite rural).

I have never seen ANY posts from those guys criticizing this Democrat for across-the-board implimentation of his ridiculous mandates that are more about feelings than science.

(Which is WHY they can’t criticize Cuomo’s mask hypocrisy either [Lurkers. You can see that again right here]. Their actions say to me politics is supreme.)

If you don’t assume that then there was no point to your posting:

And how many do they have due to auto accidents…or cancer…or heart disease…or drug use?

as a refutation of the comparatively high covid death rate in Sweden.

Well, then is no sense in saying the Sweden has a better strategy than other countries. Somebody apparently wants to compare Sweden favorably with other countries, because that is the title of this thread.

I see. Because more people die in auto accidents, and cancer, and we don’t lock down the nation to combat these things, we should not lock down the nation to combat covid-19. Well, locking down the nation would have no effect on cancer because cancer is not spread by contact. And locking down the nation to prevent auto accidents is a nonsense way to combat auto accidents because we have other ways of combating auto accidents. And banning automobiles may stop auto accidents during the ban, but there is no end in sight to such a ban. However a virus is different. There is hope for a vaccine, and even if there is no vaccine, isolation until it dies out means we can open up afterwards. There is nothing comparable in auto accidents. So your list of other ways to die is just comparing apples to bananas and artichokes and bell peppers and potatoes and kumquats.

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New Jersey is a state. Stockholm is a city. Apples and zucchinis. A more valid comparison would be with New York City, at double the density of Stockholm and 26,000 / mi2. Or, staying in New Jersey, there is Jersey City at ~18,000 / mi2

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Exactly.
The decision to put up with a certain amount of lost lives is already made for many things.
The speed limit being 55 instead of 45 is a question of lives lost.
Where to put a traffic light is also a question of lives lost.

Every country does this, so why do you find it so reprehensible if Sweden decides the lives lost are not worth the economic problems (including other lives lost) created by a lockdown?

They made the decision, and it seems to be working.

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Actually, I was pointing out the misleading argument you were trying to make.
You claim Sweden to have a low population density… therefore they are already social distancing.

And the claim is baseless and misleading, particularly when one looks at the cities.

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Compared to New York, that is true.

Your claim was misleading.
Here it is again so we can look at it and make sure I am not mistaken…

Since we know Stockholm to be much more densely populated, your proposal that they are “so spread out” to be just an erroneous interpretation that misleads people into believing that there are no densely populated areas in Sweden.

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