"logic" in Islam (sorry have to vent about this)


#1

My friend who is Muslim is at my house today and not surprisingly he starts making backhanded comments about “kafir” beliefs once his conversation with my roommate drifts toward them in some way. (they were talking about pork, don’t ask)

My roommate, who should know better than to talk to brick walls anyway, brings up how in the OT God probably told them not to eat pork for the health reasons/people not knowing how to cook it thoroughly enough… etc. Of course this is most likely true but my Muslim friend doesn’t see it that way.

And now (this is SOOO clever :rolleyes: ) my Muslim friend makes the comment “so the law changes as science progresses then?” Obviously he’s implying how Christian law has been “corrupted” from the original and blablabla, not even taking into account how this isn’t a moral issue to begin with but hey what can you expect? I’m thinking why the h*** do people in glass houses always insist on throwing the first stone…? I almost wanted to say “no our laws don’t ‘change’ with science, they change according to the arbitrary whims of our so-called ‘prophet’ of course!” … Like Muslims didn’t change enough of their laws over time themselves, but for them it’s okay I guess… the facing of Jerusalem during prayer before Mecca, how at first alcohol was allowed and then it was gradually banned… I could go ON and ON… I mean what gives??

Sorry had to get that out of my system :frowning:


#2

Logic? The pope asks for reasonable discussion with Islam. Their response. Riot in various place around the world and cut off a few heads. Muslim logic. Can you see the connection?

CDL


#3

I’ve heard a couple of different reasons of why pork was prohibited.

Pigs need losts of water. They need to wallow in water/mud to keep cool. When you live in the desert and have very little water, you really don’t want a pig wasting what little you have or contaminating your water source.

Another reason I heard has to do with the idea that through the OT God is leading the Jews from being pagans to being monotheists. One of the major problems is that the Jewish people were surrounded by pagans and had pagan traditions. To many of the prohibitions in the OT laws were to break the old pagan ways.

Not cutting hair at the temples and not trimming beards on the sides was to distinguish the Jews from the worshipers of Ra (and other pagan gods) who cut their hair/beard that way. It was a statement of allegiance with that god. Look at ancient Egyptian art… You will see that the men often had their beards/hair cut that way…

Pigs were the favorite and most profitable (meaning they got greater rewards) sacrifices to many pagan gods. Remember that after a sacrifice, everyone feasted on the roast beast. So to break the traditions of pagan forms of sacrifice and worship, God made it illegal to eat pork.


#4

Ask him why at first alcohol was allowed then that changed.

I have been told my Muslims that this was done because Allah had a plan. He did not want to throw it all at people all at once. So little by little he added more restrictions.

The bit about food restrictions is similar. God made the food and other restrictions at first to move the Jews away from paganism. by the time of Jesus this was no longer a problem. Judeism had been well intrenched for many generations… thousands of years actually. The the restrictions were no longer needed… Most of the pagans had even abandoned those things so they were not even pagan rituals anymore in mose cases.

Growing mixed seeds in fields is another of these… pagans used to plant a field with mixed herbs and other plants which were believed to have powers. Once the plants were mature, they would hold a ceremony in the field adn burn some of the plants.


#5

There are so many reasons that you might be able to list that there is no logic in Islam you probably wouldn’t even have room to list.

Bottom line ~ Islam is at best some sort of heresy. No one should follow it and the violence done in the name of Islam is all the proof that any reasonable person should need to know it is a false religion.

If somone needs MORE proof ~ consider the fact that NO ONE of the Islam faith has EVER publicly condemned the violence done in the name of “Islam”. The people that drove the planes into the twin towers in New York were shouting “Allah is Great” (except they were speaking Arabic and I can’t write the Arabic words.) They weren’t saying anything remotely related to any religion except Islam. The Muslims of the world have never come to grips with the fact that people are doing murder in the name of their religion. And many of them believe that such murder is justified. And NO ONE has come out AGAINST this perversion.

If that isn’t evidence that a religion is a heresy, I have no idea how you could come up with a better example.


#6

Christians and Muslims will always get into fights if both think they are right.


#7

True, both do think that they are right.

But Christians (and all non-Muslims) have a very important reason for needing to know more about Islam…

Islam teaches that Muslims must fight all non-Muslims to convert, subjigate under Islamic rule, or kill us until Islam rules the world. It is a real threa.

So while we are just arguing theology, they are when expressing why they have the Allah given right to one day subjudate or kill us. This is the profound difference between Isalm and the rest of us.


#8

There is a difference between Christianity and Islam.

Islamist may “think” they are right.

We Christians KNOW the Islamists are wrong. We don’t “think” we are right. We KNOW we are. We KNOW they are wrong. And for good reason.

Islamists are following a heresy that is convenient to them because it enables them to do the violence that they want to do anyway. This is a “religion” that facilitates their evil impulses. As such, it is not of God, it is not a true religion at all.

There is no better proof that a religion is false than for violence and murder to be done in the name of that religion. Islam is false. Islam is not a religion, it is an excuse for murder. It is a violent evil cult. The men that drove the planes into the twin towers were shouting to Allah, not to Jesus. The sooner people wake up and realize that, and leave this evil cult, the better off the world will be.

Coddling Islamists is not the answer. In fact, it is possible that it furthers their evil.


#9

The pope just simply condemned violence done in the name ore religion at Regensberg last year. The violent calling for his holiness’s death prove his point.


#10

I had asked him before and that’s the answer he gave me as well. What gets me is how when God changes some absolute law in their religion it’s okay because “he had a plan” whereas with any other religion they will immediately claim any change must = “corruption”. They have so many double-standards I could probably write a book.


#11

Hi
When did pope ask for reasonable discussion with Islam?
I never read it, perhaps I missed.
Thank

The problem I feel with some of my Christian friends is that they don’t let God speak for himself. If they would have done it they would find a straight passage from the OTBible on every important issue, if Bible is a living book that answers every rational question. When they don’t get support from the Bible, they think they are wiser than God, so they try putting words into God’s mouth first for the Claim and then for the Reason which is usually not found there. One is left wondering if the Christian God is living and All-Wise.


#12

Well Catholics don’t even claim this in the first place, so basing any arguments from an assumption like that will get you nowhere.


#13

Originally Posted by paarsurrey
if Bible is a living book that answers every rational question.

Hi
Would you kindly correct me:
I said Bible is **a living book **; Is that wrong? Is it otherwise?
I said Bible answers every rational question; Does Bible not answer every rational question?
If you don’t opt to answer, no compulsion. We are just discussing for truth, we are not debating.
Thanks

One should search for truth in the NTBible, but one should not compromise on truth, if it is not found there.


#14

The last two Popes have asked for reasonable discussions with Islam. Pope John Paul II visited Mosques, prayed with Muslim leaders, invited them to the Vatican, tried to start a discussion with the leaders of Islam, Judeism and himself. The current pope, Pope Benedict was

Don’t forget that a Muslim tried to assassinate Pope John Paul in 1981… shooting him 4 times. Depite this Pope John Paul tried to reach out to Islamic leaders…
news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/13/newsid_2512000/2512533.stm

Here are a couple of lineks about what he did…
catholic-forum.com/saints/pope0264qr.htm

daughtersofstpaul.com/johnpaulpapacy/meetjp/thepope/jpislam.html

Search the web, you will find a lot of articles no this. Unfortunately the leaders of Islam have not been overly receptive.

The current Pope has tried to get Islamic leaders to sit down and talk about serious issues. They refuse.


#15

Not to get this thread off-topic, but I have a question about the pope’s speech that took place about a year ago I guess that angered the Moslem World. Okay what exactly did he say? I used to know, but I forgot. He had to have made a distingtion between justified violence and not justified violence in the name of religion. I mean no pope has ever condemed the Crusades, maybe the wrongs, but not the Crusades themselves.

God speed.

Vigis


#16

; Is that wrong? Is it otherwise?

I hear it described as a “living” book sometimes (mostly by Protestants), but I really don’t know what they mean by this… nor do I care. In your case, what do you mean by the word “living” as applied here? You’ll have to help me understand just where you’re coming from.

I said Bible answers every rational question

; Does Bible not answer every rational question?
If you don’t opt to answer, no compulsion. We are just discussing for truth, we are not debating.
Thanks

No problem, I don’t mind answering.

The Bible does NOT answer every rational question. That’s just not the purpose for which it is written… besides this is impossible for any book to do as the number of rational questions you could possibly ask is pretty much infinite!

One should search for truth in the NTBible, but one should not compromise on truth, if it is not found there.

If you are “searching” for truth in the NT or any set of books for that matter, I don’t know how you can subsequently claim to know whether or not it contained the truth just from reading it… After all, what were you doing “searching” for the truth if apparently you knew how to judge the truth in the first place?! :confused:


#17

The bible does not answer very rational question. It does not even pretend to. For example it is rational to ask about the laws of gravity. The answer cannot be found in the Bible. Nor and the cure for cancer be found there.


#18

During a talk on the coherence of Faith and Reason he quoted an 11th (?) century Byzantine Emperor who said this:

“Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”


#19

Yeah no kidding. That’s exactly what I mean, but you’d think it was obvious enough. :slight_smile:


#20

Calling it a ‘living’ book could mean two things….
— that it can be updated/modified as events occur. The bible was ‘living’ in this sense for thousands of years as each new book was added. But with the adding of the NT it is come complete. So it is no longer living in this sense.
—the other way a book and be ‘living’ is that people’s interpretations and implementations of its teachings can change with time. For example in the OT days the punishment for adultery is listed as death. But the NT came along and changed that. Another example is that at one time some interpreted the bible to say that the sun orbited the earth and the earth was the center of the universe. But we found that our interpretation of scripture was wrong… we now better now. So Christians have reinterpreted that part of scripture with the facts that we now know… now we know that the bible was not being literal, put instead metaphorical when it sounded like it was saying that the earth is flat and/or the center of the universe.

I believe that the bible is living in the second sense.


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