Looking for an Orthodox Catholic magazine that does NOT support illegal immigration in the U.S.


#1

I'm looking to subscribe to a magazine that teaches and discusses traditional Catholic values from an Orthodox perspective. Unfortunately, every magazine I have seen so far lends their support to the USCCB's decision to support illegal immigration and "amnesty." I cannot agree with this policy that rewards people for violating their fellow human beings by: illegally moving into their country, violating their laws, selfishly usurping the limited resources of legal taxpayers who are struggling to raise their own families, and then claim to be "victims."

This is hardly an un-Christian view. It is a sane view.

I guess I'm looking for a magazine that teaches Christianity AND common sense and isn't afraid to call a spade a spade. Anyone have any recommendations??

Thanks


#2

[quote="copeland45, post:1, topic:209543"]
I'm looking to subscribe to a magazine that teaches and discusses traditional Catholic values from an Orthodox perspective. Unfortunately, every magazine I have seen so far lends their support to the USCCB's decision to support illegal immigration and "amnesty." I cannot agree with this policy that rewards people for violating their fellow human beings by: illegally moving into their country, violating their laws, selfishly usurping the limited resources of legal taxpayers who are struggling to raise their own families, and then claim to be "victims."

This is hardly an un-Christian view. It is a sane view.

I guess I'm looking for a magazine that teaches Christianity AND common sense and isn't afraid to call a spade a spade. Anyone have any recommendations??

Thanks

[/quote]

Well, I'll be honest. Your best bet would be to get a subscription to a magazine (or newspaper) such as The National Catholic Register and then avoid reading those issues that you have choosen not to support. Either that or perhaps start your own magazine. Your post confuses me somewhat because you ask for "a magazine that teaches and discusses traditional Catholic values from an Orthodox perspective" but then at the same time you want a magazine that doesn't support certain positions taken by the Church's bishops (IE - the magisterium). :confused: Wouldn't that be like me asking for a good magazine that supports Christianty but at the same time denies Christ's divinity?

We are, by the way, allowed to have differing opinions on immigration (it's not a dogma of the Church), however, we as Catholics are called to be charitable toward everyone not just legal citizens of the United States. Peace and God bless.


#3

[quote="Tietjen, post:2, topic:209543"]
however, we as Catholics are called to be charitable toward everyone not just legal citizens of the United States. Peace and God bless.

[/quote]

Agreed! Step one is just having this opinion, but then it really aids in cultivating racism. And Mexicans/Hispanics are really nice, good people, and many good Catholics. You are more alike to most illegal immigrants by your common connection to God than you are to the majority of Americans. Is the system abused? Yes! Can we fully understand what some of these people are going through? No.


#4

[quote="copeland45, post:1, topic:209543"]
I'm looking to subscribe to a magazine that teaches and discusses traditional Catholic values from an Orthodox perspective. Unfortunately, every magazine I have seen so far lends their support to the USCCB's decision to support illegal immigration and "amnesty." I cannot agree with this policy that rewards people for violating their fellow human beings by: illegally moving into their country, violating their laws, selfishly usurping the limited resources of legal taxpayers who are struggling to raise their own families, and then claim to be "victims."

This is hardly an un-Christian view. It is a sane view.

I guess I'm looking for a magazine that teaches Christianity AND common sense and isn't afraid to call a spade a spade. Anyone have any recommendations??

Thanks

[/quote]

When you find one, please let me know.


#5

[quote="ljubim, post:3, topic:209543"]
Agreed! Step one is just having this opinion, but then it really aids in cultivating racism. And Mexicans/Hispanics are really nice, good people, and many good Catholics. You are more alike to most illegal immigrants by your common connection to God than you are to the majority of Americans. Is the system abused? Yes! Can we fully understand what some of these people are going through? No.

[/quote]

So if someone is 'going through tough times,' that makes it all right to break laws?

I guess we should have way more sympathy for killers. You never know what the poor dears are going through. :rolleyes:


#6

These folks may have some reviews of on-line mags and thus the print versions too.

catholicculture.org/culture/reviews/

You could try this site as well for print Mags.

fisheaters.com/


#7

[quote="Sailor_Kenshin, post:5, topic:209543"]
So if someone is 'going through tough times,' that makes it all right to break laws?

[/quote]

No of course not. It is much more charitable to let a starving man, woman, or child die than it is to change a law which might help prevent them from starving. :rolleyes:

[quote="Sailor_Kenshin, post:5, topic:209543"]
I guess we should have way more sympathy for killers. You never know what the poor dears are going through. :rolleyes:

[/quote]

Do you really want to compare a mother or father who crosses the boarder to work for minimum wage or less (in order to provide food for their children) to murders? :hypno:

If you have a more sane rebuttal to make, now would be a good time to throw it out there. A person can lose a lot during his/her lifetime; money, time, hope, family, friends, etc. These things can be lost without his willingness to lose them. BUT if a person loses his charity toward humanity, he is to blame as this cannot be lost but rather can only be given up freely by his lack of compassion toward his fellow man.


#8

Cafeteria Catholicism certainly does appeal to both sides of the secular political spectrum, eh?

I'm not a fan of illegal immigration either, but I've come to recognize that the LARGER injustice is the unrealistic US policy on LEGAL immigration quotas for unskilled, unconnected immigrant wannabees. Basically if you don't have relatives already here or have a particular skill that is in critical shortage, and don't already have money, don't bother applying.

Virtually ALL of us in America owe our wellbeing to the wide open immigration quotas of earlier centuries. Don't think for ONE second that the Americans already here when waves of penniless Irish, Italians, Polish, Chinese, etc came didn't have the SAME objections to these 'dirtbags' coming in and working for a pittance and driving down wages and making jobs scarce....

Take a driving vacation across America sometime if you think we are 'overpopulated.' It's nuts to even think it! The solution to illegal immigration in America is not more fences and armed border guards. The solution is a return to the sane immigration policies of the past, namely send us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be FREE. Free Americans.


#9

[quote="copeland45, post:1, topic:209543"]
I'm looking to subscribe to a magazine that teaches and discusses traditional Catholic values from an Orthodox perspective. Unfortunately, every magazine I have seen so far lends their support to the USCCB's decision to support illegal immigration and "amnesty." I cannot agree with this policy that rewards people for violating their fellow human beings by: illegally moving into their country, violating their laws, selfishly usurping the limited resources of legal taxpayers who are struggling to raise their own families, and then claim to be "victims."

This is hardly an un-Christian view. It is a sane view.

I guess I'm looking for a magazine that teaches Christianity AND common sense and isn't afraid to call a spade a spade. Anyone have any recommendations??

Thanks

[/quote]

I'm with the people who don't advise trying to find a magazine that picks and chooses what it will support coming out of the USCCB on this one issue. You might find magazines that support the issue on USCCB on some issues and not others, but I'd not hold my breath on this one.

On the "sane" issue, where did you get the idea that Christianity is about "common sense", as you define it? The whole world has common sense:

"...to you who hear I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. To the person who strikes you on one cheek, offer the other one as well, **and from the person who takes your cloak, do not withhold even your tunic. Give to everyone who asks of you, and from the one who takes what is yours do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.* For if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same. If you lend money to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit (is) that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, and get back the same amount. But rather, love your enemies and do good to them, and lend expecting nothing back; then your reward will be great and you will be children of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful, just as (also) your Father is merciful*."
Luke 6:27-36

Read all of Luke, or even just Luke 6, and tell me that these are the words of a "sane" and "law-abiding" person with the least interest in protecting your property from a hungry man.

It's not that I'm against countries enforcing their sovereign borders. Rather, if we are going to be within the Gospel, we need to be as intent on penalizing those who fatten themselves (and, sometimes, ourselves in the process) on the toil of illegal immigrants as we are about keeping the immigrants from taking advantage of our other resources. You can't just use another human being only until he becomes a burden, failing to protect him from unscrupulous employers, and only when he needs help start complaining at the crime he committed by entering the country illegally. That is where our lack of consistency comes in, IMHO.


#10

I am not sure the Catholic Church is truly the best place for the OP. Our contributions go to Catholic Charities and Catholic Social Services - both of which help support immigrants. The Catholic Social teachings and Moral Theology our Church is based on are in conflict with the OP's beliefs.

Just saying...


#11

This is issue is a political one, not a faith issue, therefore I don't feel beholden to what the USCCB says on the issue.

I do have one question: if a boat is floating in an ocean and it is about to capsize because it is full of people, do we turn away others who wish to board it so that all will not perish?

At some point, resources run out. The U.S. is in debt to the tune of $3 trillion, the cost of EVERYTHING is through the roof because of people who use resources but don't pay in.

And do we even need to mention the crime and drugs in border states??

[quote="EasterJoy, post:9, topic:209543"]
IYou can't just use another human being only until he becomes a burden, failing to protect him from unscrupulous employers, and only when he needs help start complaining at the crime he committed by entering the country illegally. That is where our lack of consistency comes in, IMHO.

[/quote]

How are we "using" people when they are the ones breaking laws to get into the country? You have it backwards: they are using us. Even Jesus believed in obeying the civic laws: "render unto Caesar what is Caesars." Illegeal immigrants render nothing. They are Gods' children like we all are, but they are breaking the laws. Just as we cannot be "cafeteria Catholics" we also cannot be "Cafeteria law-abiders", picking and choosing which laws we wish to follow.

The hypocrisy of most Catholics on this issue is galling.


#12

If I didn't know so many who broke their backs doing jobs Americans were so proud to take, not having health insurance (public assistance? Fogettaboutit!!) and being encouraged and exploited by businesses who work to bring them here (cheap labor, they'd have to pay Americans more), I'd be more inclined to agree. C'mon, you think they randomly ended up at that meat packing plant in Iowa? No, the plant encouraged and supported the importation of many of them, many who know they could make much more here than as a teacher in their native countries. If you're going to punish the immigrants, punish the businesses who hire them.

When I feed the hungry, I don't ask for papers. :rolleyes: A hundred years ago, a lot of people came without papers. That was a slur for a lot of Italians who came over here. Many of the Eastern European Jews left their own countries illegally.

Also, the U.S. does not have the best track record with asylum. If our policies support unjust dictators, we are less inclined to recognize those fleeing as refugees.


#13

[quote="copeland45, post:11, topic:209543"]
How are we "using" people when they are the ones breaking laws to get into the country?

[/quote]

Here's a few offhand:

  1. Illegals mostly work on phoney social security cards, so they DO pay into social security and have payroll taxes witheld. We (our collective government) get their taxes and only pay out a pittance in return (mostly health care). Illegals cannot claim social security benefits, nor get a tax refund at the end of the year. Yes, their kids go to school, but they live and pay rent somewhere, so the OWNER of that property is paying property tax on it, which he gets from their rent payments, which in turn supports the school system.

  2. Most people get quotes for work they need done and pick the lowest price as long as the contractor doesn't have a bad reputation. If this is you, you are most likely paying illegal aliens (whether it is lawn service, landscape installation, plumbing, roofing, etc.) If its hard work and a low price, you are probably benefitting from the low wages paid to an illegal, not to mention the fact that the employer doesn't have to budget for workman's comp, disability benefits, etc. Guy gets hurt and can't work? Fired. Keeps the overhead low, you know.

  3. Eat food? The price you pay is kept artificially low via illegal alien farm work. If every man hour that went into agriculture was paid minimum wage plus benefits food would cost a LOT more.

Those are just offhand.


#14

[quote="sanctamaria17, post:12, topic:209543"]
If I didn't know so many who broke their backs doing jobs Americans were so proud to take, not having health insurance (public assistance? Fogettaboutit!!) and being encouraged and exploited by businesses who work to bring them here (cheap labor, they'd have to pay Americans more), I'd be more inclined to agree.

[/quote]

I'm an Economics graduate student, so let me help you out on how this is SUPPOSED to work if the Federal government actually starts enforcng the laws:

  1. Illegal immigrants already in the country and working could apply for residency and be approved.
  2. Illegal immigrants who are here operating criminally would be deported.
  3. The borders would be secured.
  4. The lessening flow of illegals would place less strain on public programs.
  5. Catholic Charities could still support impoverished peoples in their own country.
  6. If domestic wages rise to a level that is unsupportable by domestic businesses, then we could increase the amount of immigrants we allow into the country who are willing to work for lower wages. But we would KNOW WHO THEY ARE. They could come out of the cover of darkness, and have the pride of being a legal citizen.

#15

If you move into a country and break its laws, you are violating your fellow human being. It is that simple!!

We can argue whether illegals are mistreated once they get here, but the bottom line is that they broke laws to get here. They are under the cover of darkness and are therefore more likely to break other laws.

People who think we should allow anyone into the country who wants to be here because it is the "Christ-like thing to do" (and not require them to follow our laws), well that's fine. But the end-result would be a poorer, weaker United States who would not be able to provide the tens of billions of dollars of foreign aide that we currently provide to Africa, Central America, etc. Also, we would no longer lead the world in innovation, research, etc, that helps other humans (medicine, computers, etc). How is this Christ-like??


#16

My thoughts on this are there is reform needed in the immigration policies of this country. BUT after 9/11 this country can no longer be in the dark about who is in this country. While the majority of illegal aliens are good, hard-working people who are only looking to better their lives and their families, there are those in this country who do not have good intentions. They mean to harm us because of their perverted religious views or they're here for no good and commit a bunch of crimes. And, yes, there are those who are here for no good. I work in a criminal courtroom; and we get a lot of criminals of who are illegal. And I'm talking about dangerous criminals -- people who drink and drive and hurt people, people who get in bar fights and stab people, HUGE gang problems, et cetera. And if they're from Mexico, they go back when the law is looking for them because we can't get them back without a huge fight.


#17

[quote="Nanny_PK, post:16, topic:209543"]
My thoughts on this are there is reform needed in the immigration policies of this country. BUT after 9/11 this country can no longer be in the dark about who is in this country. While the majority of illegal aliens are good, hard-working people who are only looking to better their lives and their families, there are those in this country who do not have good intentions. They mean to harm us because of their perverted religious views or they're here for no good and commit a bunch of crimes. And, yes, there are those who are here for no good. I work in a criminal courtroom; and we get a lot of criminals of who are illegal. And I'm talking about dangerous criminals -- people who drink and drive and hurt people, people who get in bar fights and stab people, HUGE gang problems, et cetera. And if they're from Mexico, they go back when the law is looking for them because we can't get them back without a huge fight.

[/quote]

:thumbsup:


#18

I rather believe it to be at the heart of Christianity and a moral issue. This issue strikes at the essence of BEING a Catholic as opposed to simply being labeled a Catholic. It’s about charity for fellow human beings NOT about closing our doors to those (who through no fault of their own) are trying to put food on their family’s tables.

I’m not for ignoring the laws of a nation, what I want are for those laws to be changed. I’d like to see reform in our immigration laws based on Christian morality and charity.

Two thoughts…

  1. As a person who has traveled all over the world, I find that the U.S. is STILL a nation whose people live far better than 99% of the world even with the threat of higher taxes, a 10% unemployment rate, etc. Many of those who are considered to be living in poverty have cable TV and cell phones for crying out loud! Therefore I would suggest that you needn’t worry too much about the boat capsizing because perhaps there is more room than you choose to believe.

  2. Secondly, what the USCCB is suggesting is NOT to ignore the sovereignty of the U.S. immigration laws, but rather it’s to change those laws (expand the boat) to better accommodate our fellow man. The Church, and Christianity for that matter, doesn’t stop at the boarders.

Really? Then something should be done about that. Perhaps businesses should be cracked down upon to ensure that taxes are being withheld, all workers are being paid at least minimum wage, etc. The answer isn’t to blame the father of 6 who can’t support his family across the border so he comes here to make sure he can feed them. If roles were reversed would you leave your home and family in order to keep them alive?

No, we don’t since the numbers don’t even begin to imply that the majority of illegal immigrants are coming here packing drugs on their backs or murdering our citizens. If memory doesn’t fail me; there are an estimated 2.5 million illegal immigrants in CA alone. Texas has over 1 million, Arizona, New Mexico, and various other states have a few million more. Are you suggesting that the majority of these millions of people are “mules” for the cartels?

So you’re suggesting that illegal immigrants should stop getting bogus SS cards? The taxes do in fact come out of their paychecks every week, 2 weeks, etc. They just don’t get it back at the end of the year because to attempt to do so would send up red flags which may get them kicked out of the country and thus make feeding their families that much more difficult.

There’s no “BUT” that negates are call for charity to those in need.

You know I think that I would rather be a “Cafeteria law-abider” than a “Cafeteria Catholic”. Which do you think is more important? Are you going to be judged by God on the laws of the United States or on the laws established by God?

The USCCB position is to change (reform) the law so that it more closely mirrors God’s law; and you are in opposition to this?

Then perhaps you need to inventory what things about the Catholic Church you do choose to support and believe in. Why simply stop at the issue of being charitable?


#19

It is true that the US is effectively bankrupt. However the major expenditures have been on warfare and weaponry not supporting illegals. (Full disclosure: my spouse is working full-time on a military contract.) I believe the invasion of Iraq has been going on for 10 years now? Also, the USA spends more money on it's armed forces than the rest of the world put together.

If the US enforced it's laws than there would be less illegals but the reality is that illegals mean that American food is cheaper. American agribusiness (huge multinationals) have no incentive to pay a truly living wage to an American citizen. When times are hard such as this financial crisis we are currently facing there is a tendency to scapegoat certain groups with less power such as illegals. However all the bankers who have received countless millions of OUR dollars get to continue to give themselves huge bonuses.

Demographically the US will need as many young people as it can find to support and care for the largest generation in history who are now starting to retire. I don't know what the solutions are to all these issues but it's clear that the US is in a financial mess now because the financial reckoning is always put off for future generations to deal with. This year the US government will pay out more in Social Security to retirees than it took in from workers to cover those payments. This wasn't supposed to happen for another ten years. Maybe boomers should get out there and start harvesting the crop? ;)

There are many complex issues all needing attention right now but illegals are an easy target in my opinion. Frankly as a legal immigrant to the US I find plenty of the native born legal population frightening in their own right. Ilegals have no monopoly on scary and dangerous behavior.


#20

[quote="Tietjen, post:7, topic:209543"]
No of course not. It is much more charitable to let a starving man, woman, or child die than it is to change a law which might help prevent them from starving. :rolleyes:

Do you really want to compare a mother or father who crosses the boarder to work for minimum wage or less (in order to provide food for their children) to murders? :hypno:

If you have a more sane rebuttal to make, now would be a good time to throw it out there. A person can lose a lot during his/her lifetime; money, time, hope, family, friends, etc. These things can be lost without his willingness to lose them. BUT if a person loses his charity toward humanity, he is to blame as this cannot be lost but rather can only be given up freely by his lack of compassion toward his fellow man.

[/quote]

So because you feel someone (an illegal alien in this case) has a need, it's okay to break laws? That means if your neighbor had a rough time he could break into your house, rob you and assault your family?

Or because everyone's breaking a law that the law should be changed? Or because someone might be a 'perfectly nice person?'

What about the rights of law-abiding citizens to live in a lawful country? Don't you care about the people who struggled to actually BE immigrants and enter the country legally, rather than breaking a law? This is a slap in the face to all those legal immigrants this country has always welcomed. It's a slap in the face to any law-abiding citizen.

The true racism and bigotry consists of lowering standards of behavior, treating people like children, and throwing out laws just because of a person's ethnic origin or sex.

And that is the polar opposite of true charity: playing the 'compassion' card wrapped around the race card to stir up emotional support for lawbreakers.


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