LUKE 1 : 15


#1

IN READING lUKE 1:15 IS THIS VERSE SAYING THAT JOHN THE BAPTIST WAS BORN WITHOUT ORGINAL SIN ?

DOES THE CHURCH TEACH THIS OR NOT ?


#2

Here is question and answer from another site,I still do not know the churches teaching on this.
This is from that site : john the baptist & the state of his sole@ birth.
Question from theodore m proia on 12-21-2004:
was john the baptist borne without original sin, if so where can i read this teachings. I know he left his mothers womb with the holy spirit. I’m looking for the church documents on this teaching. Answer by Fr. John Echert on 12-21-2004: St. Luke records the following in his Gospel:1:39 In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, 1:40 and she entered the house of Zechari’ah and greeted Elizabeth. 1:41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 1:42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 1:43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 1:44 For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. The Church teaches that it was at this moment that the Baptist was freed from original sin and that he never sinned personally in the course of his life. Specifically, Pope Innocent III (1208 AD, DS 790) wrote: “Iohannemque Baptistam ab eo missum esse sanctum et iustum et in utero matris suae Spiritu Sancto repletum” (“and John the Baptist had been sent from Him [God] holy and righteous and filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb of his own mother”). Furthermore, St. Augustine commented that we properly celebrate the birthday of the Baptist in addition to his day of martyrdom, since he came into the world without sin. Hence it is only properly said of Mary that she was conceived free of original sin, as proclaimed in the Immaculate Conception. But the Baptist was granted the privilege of freedom from original sin in the womb which is singular in its own right and by the same grace of Christ, but in anticipation of the crucifixion in which that grace was won for us. ©Thanks, TheodoreFather Echert

will some one please help me with this ?


#3

[quote=Will Pick]Here is question and answer from another site,I still do not know the churches teaching on this.
This is from that site : john the baptist & the state of his sole@ birth.
Question on 12-21-2004: was john the baptist borne without original sin, if so where can i read this teachings. I know he left his mothers womb with the holy spirit. I’m looking for the church documents on this teaching. Answer by Fr. John Echert on 12-21-2004: St. Luke records the following in his Gospel:1:39 In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, 1:40 and she entered the house of Zechari’ah and greeted Elizabeth. 1:41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 1:42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 1:43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 1:44 For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. The Church teaches that it was at this moment that the Baptist was freed from original sin and that he never sinned personally in the course of his life. Specifically, Pope Innocent III (1208 AD, DS 790) wrote: “Iohannemque Baptistam ab eo missum esse sanctum et iustum et in utero matris suae Spiritu Sancto repletum” (“and John the Baptist had been sent from Him [God] holy and righteous and filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb of his own mother”). Furthermore, St. Augustine commented that we properly celebrate the birthday of the Baptist in addition to his day of martyrdom, since he came into the world without sin. Hence it is only properly said of Mary that she was conceived free of original sin, as proclaimed in the Immaculate Conception. But the Baptist was granted the privilege of freedom from original sin in the womb which is singular in its own right and by the same grace of Christ, but in anticipation of the crucifixion in which that grace was won for us. ©Thanks, TheodoreFather Echert

will some one please help me with this ?
[/quote]


#4

The Church celebrates three birthdays: that of the Virgin Mary, that of Jesus and that of John the Baptist. Mary and Jesus were, of course, conceived without original sin. John, although conceived with original sin, was purified *in utero *when visited by Mary (LK 1:44 For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.) Therefore, when he was born, he was born without original sin.

Deacon Ed


#5

I have to disagree with Deacon Ed-Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit which makes Him born without original sin… however, nowhere in scriptures does it say Mary was conceived by the Spirit… While Mary is the most blessed woman who ever lived, she still needed the redemption of Christ’s blood. (Romans 3:23) says that ALL have sinned…

John the Baptist , according to this passage, was FILLED with the Holy Spirit, not conceived by the Spirit… so no, John still had a sinful nature.


#6

I have to disagree with Deacon Ed-

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18) which allows Him to be born without original sin. However, nowhere in scriptures does it say or allude to Mary being conceived the same way. Although she is the most blessed woman who ever lived, she still needed the redemption of Christ.

John the Baptist, according to this passage, was FILLED with the Spirit-- not conceived by Him (The Spirit is the 3rd person of the Trinity). So John was still a sinner… <Romans 3:23>


#7

Well I was going to reply but you pretty much covered it. I guess I could say this as well. This verse hammers it in even more:

46And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

If she had no original sin and never sinned in her whole life (which completely goes against Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”) then she would have had no need for a saviour. The only reason anyone needs to be saved is because they sin and the wages of sin is death so we need to be saved from death. Is God is her saviour, that would mean she was a sinner.


#8

The Blessed Mother DID need a savior, she was just saved AT conception. The rest of us have to wait.

An often times used analogy is…He “saved” her by keeping her from falling into the pit. He “saved” her by pulling her out of the pit. Both times she was “saved”, only difference is WHEN.

And, as for the line in Romans of ALL HAVE SINNED…
How many times have you told this to your kids. “If I have told you once, I have told you a MILLION times”!. Chances are, you literally did not tell your kids a million times.

And as for John the Baptist. He may very well have been conceived with Original Sin, but while in the womb of St. Elizabeth, he was cleansed of all traces of sin when Our Blessed Mother visited Elizabeth. Remember, Jesus is the second part of the Trinity, HE IS GOD THE SON. God is not limited to our perception of time and space. He is past-present-AND future.

God has no limits. So why would we want to impose any on Him?

We live in that box HE CREATED.


#9

This is one that takes enormous patience because even after explaining thousands of times over many years, this misconception endures. OK, once again: The Catholic Church does NOT teach that Mary did not need a savior, her salvation is through Jesus in advance at her conception.

Scott


#10

So then you’re saying that Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Ghost, was just making a generalization about sinners? That he didn’t really mean that everyone had sinned. Just a whole lot. Does anyone else find that to be completely ridiculous? Because then, under that line of thinking, you can conclude that there may be other people on the face of the earth that didn;t sin or are currently not sinning and don’t need Jesus as their savior. So why don’t you guys go find them and start praying to them as well, because I’m sure they need some reveering. And your reasoning is a little weird. You claim she was born without original sin and never sinned her whole life. That would mean sin was never a part of her. She would have no reason for a savior from her sins if she never had any whatsoever.


#11

Lets cut to the chase and get it right.

Jesus conceived supernaturally, in the womb of Mary, by the power of the Holy Spirit, without sin. Trinitarian presence.

Mary conceived naturally by Anne and Joachim without sin. Yes! God was Mary’s Saviour as He prevented Her falling into original sin in the first instance. We call that action the singular grace and privilege of Almighty God. He is our Saviour still as He lifts us out of our sinful nature through confession.

(I can save you from a muddy, dirty, pool of water in two ways. I can prevent you falling in firstly, or I can lift you out of it if indeed you do fall in. Either way a saving act has been performed.)

John the Baptist conceived naturally by Elizabeth and Zacariah, concieved with original sin, redeemed in the womb when Mary visited Elizabeth, and born without sin.

Hope that clears it up.


#12

Can you show me a verse where it says Mary was convieved without sin? Or that John was sinless his whole life? And that Mary was sinless her whole life? If she was never unclean then why did she offer up a sacrifice to cleanse herself after concieving Jesus? And also, if she were sinless and also John, how do you account for Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 which leave no leeway for anyone being left out of those passages?


#13

hey sei - these people are asking if the catholic church teaches this. you and liber8ed aren’t answering for the catholic church. we KNOW you don’t accept the authority of the church. we KNOW you’re sola scriptura. the Bible DOESN’T say that mary was conceived sinless or that john the b was born sinless.

we’re not arguing these things, we’re not debating sola scriptura. we’re telling the original poster what the church teaches, based on the authority of the church.

so - if we’re gonna argue about sola scriptura, let’s start a thread on that. what’ya say?


closed #14

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