Luke 21 ("Time Of the Gentiles")


#1

The way I read Luke 21 it seems that Jerusalem is supposed to be under the “Gentiles” from the time of the Roman conquest (70 AD) until the second coming of Christ. But the state of Israel controls Jerusalem. How do you reconcile that with Scripture? I think some would say it shows that the modern state of Israel (which is based mainly on secular / nationalism) is so “un-Jewish” (in the Biblical sense) or “un-holy” that it is in fact a “Gentile” power. I know how much that will bother some to hear - but if that’s not the case then why was Jerusalem “liberated” in modern times before the second coming?


#2

I was once asked why I didn’t want to accompany a church group on a ten day trip to the Holy Land. My best answer was that I really didn’t care to be where Jesus was when I can be where he is, every day of the week in my local Catholic Church at his holy Mass. To me, whenever you enter a Catholic church and see the sanctuary lamp lit, you are in the new Jerusalem where The High Priest is present in the “temple” build for Him. That tabernacle or altar of reservation is our “holy of holies.”

As to the chapter, reading it, it seems like Christ was referring to coming events that the listeners were going to endure. As to the literal history of Jerusalem, I think there could be several interpretations. After all, Palestine was given to the Jewish people after the horror of the Holocaust by international fiat, not by a “religious” declaration. I think on reading Luke 21, I’ll just accept it as Jesus talking to the people of his time. That the church founded by Christ on Peter is the “New Jerusalem” works for me.

Maybe not for you, but that’s where good discussions begin.

Shalom


#3

Hi!

I think that you have two different circumstances here… Jesus is not only speaking about Israel as a nation but also on the events that would bring about the Promise found in St. John 4:21-24:

[FONT=“Garamond”][size=]21 Jesus saith to her: Woman, believe me, that the hour cometh, when you shall neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, adore the Father. 22 You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. 24 God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth.

…so while Israel still controls most of its land, the Holy Temple, razed by the Romans around 70 AD, remains out of their full control. I’m not sure if Josephus or other secular writers conveyed the events in such a way as to give the correct account (the depth of the military campaign that broke the Jewish insurgency/ies and drained the spiritual fervor of those who lived through/survived the experience…

Jesus’ prophecy was fully fulfilled–nearly two thousand years later the Temple Worship has not been continued:

21 Jesus saith to her: Woman, believe me, that the hour cometh, when you shall neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, adore the Father.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him.

(St. John 4:21, 23)
…so the Church was in deed persecuted and Jesus’ Followers tortured, imprisoned, and killed… and the Old Covenant means of Worship ceased as Israel was forced to capitulate to secular power… yet, simultaneously, the New Covenant means of Worship did not only survive the turmoil but it actually thieved!

Maran atha!

Angel

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#4

Where does it say “until the second coming of Christ” ?

Luke 21 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it; for these are days of vengeance, to fulfil all that is written. Alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days! For great distress shall be upon the earth and wrath upon this people; they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led captive among all nations; and Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”


#5

The “times of the Gentiles” doesn’t refer to Jerusalem being under Gentile rule but to the
time during of the proclamation of the Gospel to the non-Jewish world:

Luke 21:24 they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led captive among all nations; and Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

CCC 58: The covenant with Noah remains in force during the times of the Gentiles, until the universal proclamation of the Gospel.

Till the times of the nations be fulfilled. According to the common exposition of this, and some other places, the Jews from the time of the destruction of their temple and city, under Titus Vespasian; and especially from their utter destruction under the emperor Adrian, in punishment of their obstinate blindness, shall remain dispersed through the world under miseries and oppressions,*** till the gospel hath been preached to all nations***; then, not long before the end of the world, the Jews shall be converted, and acknowledge Jesus to be their true Messias.” – Haydock’s Catholic Bible Commentary, Luke 21:24.

Rom 11:25 *For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, (lest you should be wise in your own conceits) that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles should come in.

:slight_smile:


#6

[quote=
]Till the times of the nations be fulfilled
[/quote]

. According to the common exposition of this, and some other places, the Jews from the time of the destruction of their temple and city, under Titus Vespasian; and especially from their utter destruction under the emperor Adrian, in punishment of their obstinate blindness, shall remain dispersed through the world under miseries and oppressions,*** till the gospel hath been preached to all nations***; then, not long before the end of the world, the Jews shall be converted, and acknowledge Jesus to be their true Messias." – Haydock’s Catholic Bible Commentary, Luke 21:24.

So are you saying that the gospel has been preached to all nations and therefore that’s why Jerusalem is under Jewish control again? I may be reading the passage from Luke incorrectly, but regardless I still can’t get my mind around how the modern state of Israel fits into what Scripture says about the Jewish people…


#7

Here is an article that may shed some light for you:

Jews and the Second Coming | Roy H. Schoeman | An excerpt from Salvation Is From the Jews


#8

Thanks, personally I think most of the Old Testament prophecies cited were referring to the Jews returning from Babylon, etc. Of course who can be sure? The problem I have with the general tone of that article is that its much like the Protestant “end of the world is coming” types who think (modern) Israel is the key to the world’s salvation - and therefore anything they do is something that should be supported. Some of them actually want to see the sacrificial Temple rebuilt - as if there’s something Christian about that…


#9

Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21:24b)

The word “until” does not necessarily indicate an immediate or even an eventual reversal of fortunes for down-trodden Jerusalem at the end of the times of the Gentiles, just as the word “until” in the the passage, “[Joseph] took his wife [Mary], but knew her not until she had borne a son” (Luke 1:24b-25a), does not mean that Joseph had sexual relations with Mary immediately after she gave birth to Jesus nor does it mean he ever had sexual relations with her after she gave birth.

All I see here is a prediction that Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles without any explicit reference for or against a future restoration of Jerusalem.


#10

Ver. 24. Whoever reads Josephus’s history of the calamities which befell Jerusalem before its destruction, will find none of these terrible menaces unfulfilled. Seventy thousand were carried away captives in this war. After the soldiers were weary of killing, Titus ordered the finest of the young men to be kept to adorn his triumph. The number of captive Jews was so great in Rome, as to make the heathen poet, Rutilius Numantianus, who lived about the year 410, complain of it as a great burden to the empire.

Atque utinam nunquam Judea subacta fuisset

Pompeii bellis, imperioque Titi;

Latius excisæ pestis contagia serpunt

Victoresque suos natio victa premit.

— Trodden down, &c. After Jerusalem had been taken and destroyed by the Romans, another city was built from its ruins, called Ælia, after the name of the emperor Ælius Adrian. This was inhabited by pagans and some Christians for the Jews were forbidden even to come near it, for more than two or three centuries. Tertullian informs us, that they even bought, at a great price, permission to see it at a distance, and drop a tear over the ashes of their ancient and ill-fated country. Thus was Jerusalem trodden under foot, till the time of the nations was accomplished; that is, till Christianity, in every nation, had triumphed over the persecution of paganism. (Calmet) — Till the times of the nations be fulfilled. According to the common exposition of this, and some other places, the Jews from the time of the destruction of their temple and city, under Titus Vespasian; and especially from their utter destruction under the emperor Adrian, in punishment of their obstinate blindness, shall remain dispersed through the world under miseries and oppressions, till the gospel hath been preached to all nations; then, not long before the end of the world, the Jews shall be converted, and acknowledge Jesus to be their true Messias. See Romans xi. 25. (Witham)


#11

Israel becoming an official state again was a very big deal.


#12

Thanks for the reply, but I’m not clear if you feel the times of the Gentiles has come yet or not, your opinion on what the modern state of Israel signifies, etc…


closed #13

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