Luke 23:43 "I tell you the truth, today you will be in me in paradise."


#1

Is it correct to say that the robber did not go to purgatory, but directly to heaven?

(I do not want this thread to be a discussion whether purgatory exists or not. That’s not my question. Thanks.)


#2

Jesus led all that were in “sheol” into heaven after preaching to them the good news[1 Peter 3:18-19]. Their entrance into heaven was not until the Resurrection of Jesus. The gospel reference to “paradise” would be that part of sheol not reserved for the damned. Paradise would not be heaven in the sense of being face to face with God in heaven. Another reference to paradise in the gospels would be in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, where the reference is to the “bosom of Abraham.” This is a place of peace prior to the completion of Christ’s redemptive mission on earth.

I hope this helps.


#3

I suppose one could argue that the thief had baptism of desire, and since baptism also removes all temporal punishment, that he would indeed go to Heaven.

Scott


#4

Being on a cross, I think he was already experiencing his purgatory.


#5

[quote=Scott Waddell]I suppose one could argue that the thief had baptism of desire, and since baptism also removes all temporal punishment, that he would indeed go to Heaven.

Scott
[/quote]

In order to make such an argument you would need to know that the thief had not already been baptized - and no one knows whether he was or wasn’t - the gospel narrative is silent.

Just the Facts,

Phil

Hi Pax!


#6

[quote=Philthy]In order to make such an argument you would need to know that the thief had not already been baptized - and no one knows whether he was or wasn’t - the gospel narrative is silent.

Just the Facts,

Phil

Hi Pax!
[/quote]

True. Could one argue perfect contrition?

Scott


#7

[quote=Philthy]In order to make such an argument you would need to know that the thief had not already been baptized - and no one knows whether he was or wasn’t - the gospel narrative is silent.

Just the Facts,

Phil

Hi Pax!
[/quote]

I acknowledge that this was speculative.


#8

[quote=JimG]Being on a cross, I think he was already experiencing his purgatory.
[/quote]

Is this true that as Catholics were are to believe that our sufferings here on earth would count as time in purgatory? (Even if, as in his case, the sufferings are the result of our own sin?)

Also, regarding the thief - I’ve heard it said that because Jesus was God - He could’ve easily made an exception (no baptism ? or purgatory?) for the thief. We are bound by God’s rules… but He isn’t.


#9

I think the point is, as Pax alluded to, that heaven was not open till Christ rose from the dead. So what does “today…in paradise” mean in that context on the day of His crucifixion. I think Pax explained that well. (Exceptions to heaven being closed could be Elijah and Enoch who were taken up to the Lord.)


#10

[quote=Scott Waddell]I suppose one could argue that the thief had baptism of desire, and since baptism also removes all temporal punishment, that he would indeed go to Heaven.

Scott
[/quote]

Are you assuming that he never received a water baptism?
Does it say somewhere that Dismas was not baptized?


#11

[quote=Gem]I think the point is, as Pax alluded to, that heaven was not open till Christ rose from the dead. So what does “today…in paradise” mean in that context on the day of His crucifixion. I think Pax explained that well. (Exceptions to heaven being closed could be Elijah and Enoch who were taken up to the Lord.)
[/quote]

I think it was on EWTN (but not sure) and it was said that the punctuation of that verse is not correct and what Jesus said was not actually “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” but was rather “Amen, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise”. If it was the latter then it could easily mean the criminal on the cross could go to Purgatory first and Heaven later and that Jesus was simply telling him that day he was saved.


#12

[quote=carol marie]Is this true that as Catholics were are to believe that our sufferings here on earth would count as time in purgatory? (Even if, as in his case, the sufferings are the result of our own sin?)

Also, regarding the thief - I’ve heard it said that because Jesus was God - He could’ve easily made an exception (no baptism ? or purgatory?) for the thief. We are bound by God’s rules… but He isn’t.
[/quote]

We are responsible for what we know. The man on the cross on side of Jesus did not know of him before that moment and the revelation on the cross with Jesus must have been extreme I would assume nearly the same as to Peter when he accepted the keys. God has given us many rules and commandments but he also has infinite mercy for his children, just as I have for mine. When a child dies through an abortion do they go to hell because they were not baptized? I think we all agree they do not and in turn the man on the cross really hasn’t heard the Good Word until that moment on the cross, and had an immediate conversion of his soul.

 Peace,

David


#13

i tend to agree with David… i don’t believe the thief was
baptised, i believe he was converted there on the cross…

and as i’ve said before, i believe pugatory is kinda like
the lobby of the theater, you can’t see the show yet, but
you know it’s only a matter of a short while… so, compared
to standing outside in the ticket line, it’s paradise…

kinda…

:slight_smile:


#14

[quote=johnshelby]i tend to agree with David… i don’t believe the thief was
baptised, i believe he was converted there on the cross…

and as i’ve said before, i believe pugatory is kinda like
the lobby of the theater, you can’t see the show yet, but
you know it’s only a matter of a short while… so, compared
to standing outside in the ticket line, it’s paradise…

kinda…

:slight_smile:
[/quote]

In Dante’s Divine Comedy, Paradise is the top level of Purgatory. Eden: a place of peace and perfect hope.


#15

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