lust


#21

[quote="JRKH, post:20, topic:309242"]

I must say though that I don't agree that the church's definition of lust "robs" us of anything. A reasonable thinking person can recognize that "inordinate desire" is the underpinning of all of these things no matter what they are called, lust, greed, avarice, gluttony and so forth.

[/quote]

What I meant when I used the term "robs" us was that the catechism strictly speaking of it tends to narrowly define lust as a sexual thing. I have a hard time understanding exactly what sexual lust is. I might be easier for someone to understand the concept of lust as a power trip. Some people are fine until they get some authority and then they become sadistic to their employees for example or those under them.

HTH


#22

[quote="billcu1, post:21, topic:309242"]
What I meant when I used the term "robs" us was that the catechism strictly speaking of it tends to narrowly define lust as a sexual thing. I have a hard time understanding exactly what sexual lust is. I might be easier for someone to understand the concept of lust as a power trip. Some people are fine until they get some authority and then they become sadistic to their employees for example or those under them.

HTH

[/quote]

Yes i agree that these things can get quite complicated - especially when various deadly sins begin to overlap. Lust, greed, gluttony, avarice, even anger and envy can get kind mixed up in these things.

Peace
James


#23

[quote="billcu1, post:21, topic:309242"]
What I meant when I used the term "robs" us was that the catechism strictly speaking of it tends to narrowly define lust as a sexual thing. I have a hard time understanding exactly what sexual lust is. I might be easier for someone to understand the concept of lust as a power trip. Some people are fine until they get some authority and then they become sadistic to their employees for example or those under them.

HTH

[/quote]

Bill,

Rage is sinful and anger is not...you don't have to understand or experience Rage to know that it is wrong....and that it can lead to something bad...

You focus on Lust....what is your purpose in trying to understand that too much of a good thing can lead to something bad. To think for a moment of something sexual happens...to maintain that focus with intensity and to desire it at the expense of all else is Lust....for example...


#24

I’m not sure it is accurate to say that anger is not sinful. From the Catechism…
2302 Anger is a desire for revenge. “To desire vengeance in order to do evil to someone who should be punished is illicit,” but it is praiseworthy to impose restitution “to correct vices and maintain justice.” If anger reaches the point of a deliberate desire to kill or seriously wound a neighbor, it is gravely against charity; it is a mortal sin. The Lord says, "Everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment." (Bolding mine)
Further, anger is listed as one of the seven deadly sins.
So rather than say that anger is not sinful - better to say that anger may or may not be sinful.

Peace
James


#25

James,

Anger is not murderous anger…I get angry all the time and I have learned to verbalize what makes me angry that allows it to be dismissed. It is not murderous anger. I suggest that anyone that has issues with anger…say

What you did makes me angry, I wish you would not do that, it makes me have to clean the kitchen twice and I would prefer to clean it only once, can you please wash your own dishes…

This is not murderous anger…

2302 By recalling the commandment, "You shall not kill,"94 our Lord asked for peace of heart and denounced **murderous anger and hatred as immoral. **

Anger is a desire for revenge. “To desire vengeance in order to do evil to someone who should be punished is illicit,” but it is praiseworthy to impose restitution "to correct vices and maintain justice."95 If anger reaches the point of a deliberate desire to kill or seriously wound a neighbor, it is gravely against charity; it is a mortal sin. The Lord says, "Everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment."96

What is anger directed at…this can be sinful…

1765 There are many passions. The most fundamental passion is love, aroused by the attraction of the good. Love causes a desire for the absent good and the hope of obtaining it; this movement finds completion in the pleasure and joy of the good possessed. The apprehension of evil causes hatred, aversion, and fear of the impending evil; this movement ends in sadness at some present evil, or in the anger that resists it.

God cannot sin and God expresses anger…

208 Faced with God’s fascinating and mysterious presence, man discovers his own insignificance. Before the burning bush, Moses takes off his sandals and veils his face in the presence of God’s holiness.13 Before the glory of the thrice-holy God, Isaiah cries out: "Woe is me! I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips."14 Before the divine signs wrought by Jesus, Peter exclaims: "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord."15 But because God is holy, he can forgive the man who realizes that he is a sinner before him: "I will not execute my fierce anger. .

I. PASSIONS

1763 The term “passions” belongs to the Christian patrimony. Feelings or passions are emotions or movements of the sensitive appetite that incline us to act or not to act in regard to something felt or imagined to be good or evil.

1767 In themselves passions are neither good nor evil. They are morally qualified only to the extent that they effectively engage reason and will. Passions are said to be voluntary, "either because they are commanded by the will or because the will does not place obstacles in their way."44 It belongs to the perfection of the moral or human good that the passions be governed by reason.45

IN BRIEF

1771 The term “passions” refers to the affections or the feelings. By his emotions man intuits the good and suspects evil.

1772 The principal passions are love and hatred, desire and fear, joy, sadness, and anger.

1773 In the passions, as movements of the sensitive appetite, **there is neither moral good nor evil. **But insofar as they engage reason and will, there is moral good or evil in them.

It is what your anger causes you to do that is sin…

I am angry and I punch you
I am angry and tell you that you make me feel sad

Both are anger.


#26

Thank you for the explanation…I’m sure it will be helpful to the OP.

However - it makes me Angry when people use GREAT BIG RED LETTERS when a simple bolding will suffice…:D…kidding of course…maybe…:hey_bud:

Anyway - you make the point well that it intent and action taken on the anger is important. For myself though…I’ll just take Jesus at his word that those who grow angry are liable to judgement. No offense…but I just know that for me at least anger leads to rash and foolish acts. Acts I would often regret later.

So I try to avoid anger…This is not to say that I don’t get upset by things like you describe in your example…If I’m passing into anger then this (to me) is not a good thing. Of course then we could start to blur the line between peeved-upset-angry-enraged…and we are back to something similar to what the OP is trying to understand about lust…

Anyway - sorry for dragging the thread off topic…

Peace
james


#27

[quote="JRKH, post:26, topic:309242"]
Thank you for the explanation...I'm sure it will be helpful to the OP.

However - it makes me Angry when people use GREAT BIG RED LETTERS when a simple bolding will suffice.....:D....kidding of course....maybe.....:hey_bud:

Anyway - you make the point well that it intent and action taken on the anger is important. For myself though....I'll just take Jesus at his word that those who grow angry are liable to judgement. No offense...but I just know that for me at least anger leads to rash and foolish acts. Acts I would often regret later.

So I try to avoid anger....This is not to say that I don't get upset by things like you describe in your example...If I'm passing into anger then this (to me) is not a good thing. Of course then we could start to blur the line between peeved-upset-angry-enraged....and we are back to something similar to what the OP is trying to understand about lust...

Anyway - sorry for dragging the thread off topic...

Peace
james

[/quote]

James,

Dysfunction and lack of mental health is the result of an attempt to supress emotions, it is better to step outside the emotion as it happens, recognize it for what it is and then as you observe decide what you should do in response to it....

I like to explain ...it is nothing more than a catalyst for change....

Anger and Sadness are nothing more than signals and catalysts for change...

Try observing your anger and see what it is that makes it happen and as you do you may find it happening less and less.


#28

[quote="CopticChristian, post:25, topic:309242"]

God cannot sin and God expresses anger...

[/quote]

God's anger is not an anger like we have. Remember Jesus was angery with those in the temple and made a whip. It's not an anger like us who are blind. And as far as I'm concerned this is right on topic. Lust for passions cause anger. Desiring.

Bill


#29

[quote="CopticChristian, post:27, topic:309242"]
James,

Dysfunction and lack of mental health is the result of an attempt to supress emotions, it is better to step outside the emotion as it happens, recognize it for what it is and then as you observe decide what you should do in response to it....

I like to explain ...it is nothing more than a catalyst for change....

Anger and Sadness are nothing more than signals and catalysts for change...

Try observing your anger and see what it is that makes it happen and as you do you may find it happening less and less.

[/quote]

Good stuff here.

Though I will say that it can very quickly become impossible to "step outside the emotion as it happens...". So suppression is a necessary component of the process that you so ably describe above.

That said - I fully agree that suppression of emotions without dealing with the underlying issues will very likely result in the problems you mention.

Peace
James


#30

[quote="JRKH, post:29, topic:309242"]
Good stuff here.

Though I will say that it can very quickly become impossible to "step outside the emotion as it happens...". So suppression is a necessary component of the process that you so ably describe above.

That said - I fully agree that suppression of emotions without dealing with the underlying issues will very likely result in the problems you mention.

Peace
James

[/quote]

JR,

Be transformed by the renewal of your mind...practice observing your behavior and when your emotions surface practice observing them....when they come...you observe...and then decide what to do...

You get angry...observe what it is that caused it, ask what you believe you should do....and in the observation....the you that is doing this is not sinning in your anger...just observing what it is telling you what to do...and you decide what to do...

Sadness....I tell people all the time, let it come, it doesn't last forever...if you observe it, it passes...it is only when you dwell in it that it lingers....

You are not your behavior, you are not your emotions...the You that God created can observe the outside of creation and the inside of creation......like a movie....


#31

[quote="CopticChristian, post:30, topic:309242"]
JR,

Be transformed by the renewal of your mind...practice observing your behavior and when your emotions surface practice observing them....when they come...you observe...and then decide what to do...

You get angry...observe what it is that caused it, ask what you believe you should do....and in the observation....the you that is doing this is not sinning in your anger...just observing what it is telling you what to do...and you decide what to do...

Sadness....I tell people all the time, let it come, it doesn't last forever...if you observe it, it passes...it is only when you dwell in it that it lingers....

You are not your behavior, you are not your emotions...the You that God created can observe the outside of creation and the inside of creation......like a movie....

[/quote]

Amen....I think the key here is where you say "practice observing your behavior". This is something we should all do and not just in moments of crisis, but always, because that is how we grow in holiness. Cultivating this practice of detachment can actually help prevent problems from cropping up.

Wish I would have learned that lesson years before I did....:blush:

Peace
James


#32

[quote="JRKH, post:31, topic:309242"]
Amen....I think the key here is where you say "practice observing your behavior". This is something we should all do and not just in moments of crisis, but always, because that is how we grow in holiness. Cultivating this practice of detachment can actually help prevent problems from cropping up.

Wish I would have learned that lesson years before I did....:blush:

Peace
James

[/quote]

James,

So if you believe that Christ was man/God....then He in his humanity experienced everything you do and more....and in that experience experienced the Will of God....and guess what....

so can we....as we experience whatever it is we experience and assent to the Will of God....Veritatis Splendor....

and then periodically ask for help...

Pray...and as we constantly practice...we consntantly

Pray without ceasing, because we need all the help we can get....Amen...


#33

[quote="JRKH, post:31, topic:309242"]
Amen....I think the key here is where you say "practice observing your behavior". This is something we should all do and not just in moments of crisis, but always, because that is how we grow in holiness. Cultivating this practice of detachment can actually help prevent problems from cropping up.

Wish I would have learned that lesson years before I did....:blush:

Peace
James

[/quote]

You will find it all comes from ignorance. All suffering is in someway self induced I believe. Look up the "12 links of interdependant origination" on google.


#34

[quote="CopticChristian, post:32, topic:309242"]
James,

So if you believe that Christ was man/God....then He in his humanity experienced everything you do and more....and in that experience experienced the Will of God....and guess what....

so can we....as we experience whatever it is we experience and assent to the Will of God....Veritatis Splendor....

and then periodically ask for help...

Pray...and as we constantly practice...we consntantly

Pray without ceasing, because we need all the help we can get....Amen...

[/quote]

Sounds like you just described the Christian version of a PDCA cycle....
(I wonder how many here might know what that stands for....bwahahahaha.....)

[quote="billcu1, post:33, topic:309242"]
You will find it all comes from ignorance. All suffering is in someway self induced I believe. Look up the "12 links of interdependent origination" on google.

[/quote]

Wow - the title alone sounds complicated....:D

Peace
James


#35

[quote="JRKH, post:34, topic:309242"]
Sounds like you just described the Christian version of a PDCA cycle....
(I wonder how many here might know what that stands for....bwahahahaha.....)

Wow - the title alone sounds complicated....:D

Peace
James

[/quote]

JR,

What I described is something that the Church has always taught and what you believe is related to something else. I have discovered that the secular world stumbles onto things that the Church does and in actuality how the Church thinks.

How we believe, so we think and as we think we act.....we change how we act and that is done by changing our beliefs which changes our thinking and then our actions is what the Church teaches and this was discovered by General Semantics, NLP, and Neurosemantics....however the Church has done this prior to this discovery and I would say that Plan, Do, Check, Act is nothing more than discovery and application of what the Church does and has done....

How do you plan?

By what you have stored in your head

What do you do?

Based on the stored information you believe.

How do you check?

All communication is feedback as is all experience.

How do you act?

Based on what you believe, what you do and the feedback so that you can reorganize what you believe so that you can act, experience and then get feedback..

As you believe, so you think, and as you think so you act....


#36

Amen and Amen…:thumbsup:

Peace
James


#37

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